View Poll Results: Which would you prefer?

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  • A world with one religion

    1 1.96%
  • A world with several religions

    23 45.10%
  • A world with no religion

    27 52.94%
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Thread: Which religious situation would you prefer?

  1. #71
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    How can the scales be tipped towards something not even feasible? My assertion has always been that religious belief of some form is intrinsic to the human condition. Religion--whether celebrated as moral guide or derided as voodoo and superstition--is one of the oldest and enduring aspects of human society and civilization; do we dismiss this as coincidence?
    No. We recognize it for what it is, a conscious manifestation of subconscious instincts and desires that have no external validity.

    There's no external evidence for the basis of the world's religions. God didn't make the world in seven days, evolution is an observed fact, Coyote isn't the "trickster", and there's no evidence for transmigration of souls, not when the personality is inextricably linked to the physical and chemical structure of the brain housing it.

    But....the human mind is certainly well known for it's ability to believe things that aren't true to explain things that aren't clearly understood. That's were religion comes from.

    The best world is the world were religion is recognized as a mental disorder and those suffering from it are provided with assistance to recover from it, not encouraged to practice it.

  2. #72
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. We recognize it for what it is, a conscious manifestation of subconscious instincts and desires that have no external validity.

    There's no external evidence for the basis of the world's religions. God didn't make the world in seven days, evolution is an observed fact, Coyote isn't the "trickster", and there's no evidence for transmigration of souls, not when the personality is inextricably linked to the physical and chemical structure of the brain housing it.

    But....the human mind is certainly well known for it's ability to believe things that aren't true to explain things that aren't clearly understood. That's were religion comes from.

    The best world is the world were religion is recognized as a mental disorder and those suffering from it are provided with assistance to recover from it, not encouraged to practice it.
    Sounds...wow...sounds no better than nazism... Just replace "religion" with "conservativism", "capitalism", "judaism" etc. and, bang, atheist nazism.

  3. #73
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. We recognize it for what it is, a conscious manifestation of subconscious instincts and desires that have no external validity.
    This assertion is as much a statement of belief as the existence of the Creator Deity, and rests on as much empirical support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    There's no external evidence for the basis of the world's religions. God didn't make the world in seven days, evolution is an observed fact, Coyote isn't the "trickster", and there's no evidence for transmigration of souls, not when the personality is inextricably linked to the physical and chemical structure of the brain housing it.
    First, absence of proof is not proof of absence. In the particular phenomenon of religious belief, it necessarily exists in the absence of proof--hence the use of the word "faith".

    Second, the Bible is not an historical document, nor does it necessarily contradict evolution. If one charts the progression of creation through the aforementioned seven days, one sees that there is no contradiction with evolutionary theory. The metaphorical creation myth of Genesis and Darwin are not necessarily in opposition to each other. Darwin neither proves nor disproves God.

    Third, personality and "soul" are two different constructs: one an observed psychological phenomenon, the other a metaphysical construct whose import and even existence is a matter of debate among religious thinkers. Buddhism, for example, despite its assertion of rebirth, also asserts the doctrine of anatman--"no soul" in Sanskrit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    But....the human mind is certainly well known for it's ability to believe things that aren't true to explain things that aren't clearly understood. That's were religion comes from.
    Again, an assertion of belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The best world is the world were religion is recognized as a mental disorder and those suffering from it are provided with assistance to recover from it, not encouraged to practice it.
    I do not desire a world filled with recovering Catholics. I do not share your vision of what is "best".

  4. #74
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    Sounds...wow...sounds no better than nazism... Just replace "religion" with "conservativism", "capitalism", "judaism" etc. and, bang, atheist nazism.
    It is worth noting that totalitarian regimes--most notably Stalinist Russia--have some history of using the rubric of mental disorder to marginalize and incarcerate their opponents.

  5. #75
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    It is worth noting that totalitarian regimes--most notably Stalinist Russia--have some history of using the rubric of mental disorder to marginalize and incarcerate their opponents.
    That's true. Only problem is, if they are correct, then they need to justify how 75% of America and 30%(80% if you include all other religions beside christianity) of the entire world has, all of a sudden, a "mental disorder".

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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    Sounds...wow...sounds no better than nazism... Just replace "religion" with "conservativism", "capitalism", "judaism" etc. and, bang, atheist nazism.

    Don't worry yourself any about helping those poor people who have that horrid disease, religion, just call the people who recognize their need for help "Nazis", and you'll feel all better about yourself.

  7. #77
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Religions do not create any conflicts,disputes, strife,hatred, famines, war, on and on......
    Ignorance, fear, intolerance, disrespect, does these things.
    Religion, in history, has caused every one of those things, including famine. Which religion was trying to starve which religion into submission in Bosnia?

  8. #78
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloDollyLlama View Post
    Religion, in history, has caused every one of those things, including famine. Which religion was trying to starve which religion into submission in Bosnia?
    No religion has done anything of the sort.

  9. #79
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    This assertion is as much a statement of belief as the existence of the Creator Deity, and rests on as much empirical support.
    No. Humans have searched 100,000 for evidence of their gods. Ain't never found a shred of a hint of any.

    That human behavior is influenced by internal unconscious urges and desires is incontrovertible fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    First, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
    You people always like to say that. It makes you feel good, but then you don't admit there's not one shred of evidence for any religion whatsoever.

    Frankly, I'm not required to prove there isn't a god. It's not logically possible. However, since nothing observed requires a Magic Sky Pixie to explain it's existence, God is not necessary, and thus by Occam's Razor, a superfluous hindrance to intellectual progress.

    You people's failure to provide the least bit of evidence to support your claim is your problem. You people are making positive assertions of the existence of something and don't have any evidence whatsoever to back it up. The logical failure is evident there. Also, religion has been a HUGE millstone around the collective neck of humanity, repeatedly interfering and inhibiting progress towards more enlightened existence.

    Example 1: The Babylonians invented the Zero to aid their mathematical calculations of astronomy. The Greeks rejected that zero, and it's inverse, the infinite, because their religion accepted neither. Because he did not have the zero, Archimedes failed to invent the calculus, though it's clear that he was both intelligent enough to do so and working out solutions to problems, such as the area of a circular spandrel, that led others directly to the calculus because they, two thousand years later, weren't shy of the zero or the infinite.

    Example 2: The absurd superstitions against human dissection held back medical knowledge for centuries, killing countless by the perpetuation of ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    In the particular phenomenon of religious belief, it necessarily exists in the absence of proof--hence the use of the word "faith".
    No. Modern religious belief, as practiced by the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims, demand not faith in the absence of evidence, but faith to reject evidence. It takes an enormous amount of "faith" to pretend that the religion promoted by the internally inconsistent Bible, for example, has anything to do with any possible "real" god. The stories conflict logically, the stories frequently simply don't fit reality (Noah's Flood being the easiest to dispell, but not the only one), and its simply not possible for a healthy rational mind to accept the document, and hence the religion it advertises, as anything except the rantings of dead ignorant savages.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Second, the Bible is not an historical document, nor does it necessarily contradict evolution.
    Of topic...and you're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If one charts the progression of creation through the aforementioned seven days, one sees that there is no contradiction with evolutionary theory.
    Read Genesis sometime, it's apparent you've not done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The metaphorical creation myth of Genesis and Darwin are not necessarily in opposition to each other. Darwin neither proves nor disproves God.
    A-hah. The usual "it's all a metaphor, not meant to be taken literally argument, except for those places where it can't be checked, and then by golly! it's absolutely inerrantly true!" argument.

    If the bible is lying about the Flood, and it is, then there's absolutely no reason - that means NONE - to accept the magical hymen of Mary or any of the other circus acts in the first century that form the basis of "evidence" for Christianity. Jesus, if he existed, was the son of a human sperm donor, just like everyone else.

    And thus christianity is just a surviving example of an ancient Mithraic cult, of which there are many examples of in history.

    [QUOTE=celticlord;1057975127]Third, personality and "soul" are two different constructs: one an observed psychological phenomenon, the other a metaphysical construct whose import and even existence is a matter of debate among religious thinkers. Buddhism, for example, despite its assertion of rebirth, also asserts the doctrine of anatman--"no soul" in Sanskrit.

    Yes. Personality is an observed expression. "Soul" is an imaginary concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I do not desire a world filled with recovering Catholics. I do not share your vision of what is "best".
    I've never denied anyone their freedom to be wrong. I seek to avoid exercising that freedom in myself, however. That's why I don't have a religion.

  10. #80
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    That's true. Only problem is, if they are correct, then they need to justify how 75% of America and 30%(80% if you include all other religions beside christianity) of the entire world has, all of a sudden, a "mental disorder".
    "All of a sudden"? It's an instinctive urge that holds families, clans, and societies together. It's served an evolutionary purpose. Religion provided the comfort of secure knowledge in the times of ignorance. It's outmoded, dangerous, and an impediment to progress today, when reliable methods of discerning real truths have been developed and shown to work.

    Doesn't mean it's valid, just like civilized people no longer perform clitoretomies on their girl children or circumcise their boy children, civilized people should be able to shed the bonds religion places on their minds.

    Where would we be today if Archimedes had found the calculus and disseminated it all around the Mediterranean? The birth of the calculus transformed european natural history into science. What would the world be like today if science could have had that two thousand year head start the Greeks abhorrence of the zero denied us?

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