View Poll Results: Which would you prefer?

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  • A world with one religion

    1 1.96%
  • A world with several religions

    23 45.10%
  • A world with no religion

    27 52.94%
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Thread: Which religious situation would you prefer?

  1. #61
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    What is likely is not what is certain; what may be is not necessarily what will be. No matter how strong the compulsion or the coercion to do harm, no thought generates harm until it expressed as action, nor have you demonstrated otherwise.

    Also, religions cannot require evil of anyone; whatsoever a religion requires of a man, within the context of that religion, it is necessarily good--it is good because the religion proclaims it as good. There is no religion that, within its moral framework, compels a person to violate that moral framework.
    Ever read the OT? Maybe the citizens of that era didn't consider stoning difficult children to death evil...is that your point?
    what color is the sky in this strange world you live in?
    I give up, you are too strange for me....
    did you, by any chance, help invent double speak?
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  2. #62
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    First of all I don't claim to make perfect generalizations. That would be absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Your thesis requires several assumptions about religion that are questionable:[*]Religious belief is "blind" belief: While not every human is a deep religious thinker, a good many, perhaps even most, do spend some time contemplating the meanings and implications of their beliefs. On what basis can we generalize that religious belief necessitates the willing suspension of reason intimated by the words "believing blindly"?
    If you ask the average person who considers themselves a "Christian" about the basic tenants of their faith most people would have very different and often wrong answers. The average Joe isn;t a bad person but he is quite ignorant to such things.

    It takes far too much time and effort (its inefficient) to become educated or educate the masses in such things whereas its easier to simply teach "do this" and "do that" rather than "do this because of X".

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    [*]Religions require an afterlife: This is just wrong. Some belief systems, such as Buddhism, impute a belief in rebirth, rendering an "afterlife" meaningless.
    If you re-read what I wrote I never claimed that ALL religions must have an afterlife. I used an example of a con of having no religion. But even Buddhism has an afterlife, per se. Nirvana, though it is non-existence is a claim to knowledge of what lies beyond this life I.E., an afterlife. Nearly all religions claim to know some details of what lies beyond death.

    I don't claim to generalize all religions into perfect little pigeon holes. Try to see past that.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    [*]Lack of belief is preferable to "blind" belief: This normative position requires some exposition. One could easily argue that "blind" belief is better than lack of belief;
    Well feel free to argue that if you wish. I highly doubt intelligent rationale beings would find that "better" involves purposeful ignorance.


    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    [*]"No religion" is attainable within the human psyche:
    I don't remember making this claim. How did you extrapolate that?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    In my experience, man is, as I have noted, a religious animal. We believe in things; this is part of what it is to be human.
    And we also do a lot of other stupid stuff too. What is "natural" is not always optimal. And in this case I find that the scales ever so slightly tip against what you would find as natural belief. Nonetheless you bring up a good point which I was trying to get at: that for many, some type of supernatural/superstitious/religious belief is longed for and thus a lack of such may be detrimental.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Belief does most people good.
    Yet we have innumerable examples of such beliefs causing human suffering and tragedy on extraordinary scales. Removing one more catalyst for such evil things would not solve the problem--there is no silver bullet for such a thing--but it would be a step toward a ideal world nonetheless.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #63
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    A world with no religion, of course.

    Remember, socialism is a religion.

  4. #64
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Ever read the OT? Maybe the citizens of that era didn't consider stoning difficult children to death evil...is that your point?
    Is it so difficult a notion to grasp? How can religion, whose moral framework proposes a definition of what is "good", demand anything that, within that framework, be "bad"?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    what color is the sky in this strange world you live in?
    Today the sky is blue. Yesterday it was gray, as there were a number of thunderstorms in the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    did you, by any chance, help invent double speak?
    I am no Democrat, thank you very much.

  5. #65
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Agreed. Religion practice has never killed anyone - that particular honour goes to hateful, angry, terrified people who hide their true motivations behind religion. And it's pretty hard to believe that those who bomb abortion clinics and hijack planes wouldn't have been drawn to some other way of dividing people into the good and the heathen vermin had religious faith not been a feature oftheir society.
    Oh.

    Religion in practice has never killed anyone, you say?

    Ever hear of those people we call "Aztecs"?

  6. #66
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Put an ever- in front of it.


    Good question.
    First ask:
    If everything is temproary, what meaning is there?
    The meaning the living give it.

    That's all there's ever been.

    The pyramids meant, to the living people who had it built, that their bodies would be preserved forever and their greatness remembered as long. To us they mean many things, not the least of which is the folly of government for wasting national treasure on such silliness.

    The concept of "meaning" doesn't exist independently of living minds.

    The invention of god served the purpose of creating a false permanence that satisfied their desires.

  7. #67
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Is it so difficult a notion to grasp? How can religion, whose moral framework proposes a definition of what is "good", demand anything that, within that framework, be "bad"?


    Today the sky is blue. Yesterday it was gray, as there were a number of thunderstorms in the area.


    I am no Democrat, thank you very much.
    I knew that, you aren't nearly smart enough for that. question is, are you dumb enough to be a dittohead?
    Oracle of Utah
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  8. #68
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    So, religious practice which does not demand human sacrifice has never killed a human being.
    Yeah, the religous practice of committing suicide with a bomb while in a crowded Isreali shopping mall has never killed anyone.

    The religious practice of committing suicide by stealing an airplane full of passengers and flying them into a building filled with people has never killed anyone either.


  9. #69
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    If you ask the average person who considers themselves a "Christian" about the basic tenants of their faith most people would have very different and often wrong answers. The average Joe isn;t a bad person but he is quite ignorant to such things.
    But is that "blind" faith? Or is it merely misinformed? More importantly, how can we be sure their view is incorrect?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    It takes far too much time and effort (its inefficient) to become educated or educate the masses in such things whereas its easier to simply teach "do this" and "do that" rather than "do this because of X".
    Sunday schools and Bible study groups seem to me to contradict you on this. People do spend time at least attempting to become educated, and to educate others--with no doubt varying degrees of success.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    If you re-read what I wrote I never claimed that ALL religions must have an afterlife. I used an example of a con of having no religion. But even Buddhism has an afterlife, per se. Nirvana, though it is non-existence is a claim to knowledge of what lies beyond this life I.E., an afterlife. Nearly all religions claim to know some details of what lies beyond death.
    You never made the explicit claim. However, your sole example pertained to the afterlife, thus implying the predicate. The significance of the predicate is that it inaccurately narrows the scope of religious belief and its significance to the individual. While what comes after death is of great importance to many, how one lives until death is for many a religious question of equal or greater importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Well feel free to argue that if you wish. I highly doubt intelligent rationale beings would find that "better" involves purposeful ignorance.
    "Ignorance is bliss". I will leave a judgment of the intelligence and rationality of the debaters to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I don't remember making this claim. How did you extrapolate that?
    From this:
    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Isn't that a good thing thus tipping the scales ever so slightly toward "no religion".
    How can the scales be tipped towards something not even feasible? My assertion has always been that religious belief of some form is intrinsic to the human condition. Religion--whether celebrated as moral guide or derided as voodoo and superstition--is one of the oldest and enduring aspects of human society and civilization; do we dismiss this as coincidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    And we also do a lot of other stupid stuff too. What is "natural" is not always optimal. And in this case I find that the scales ever so slightly tip against what you would find as natural belief. Nonetheless you bring up a good point which I was trying to get at: that for many, some type of supernatural/superstitious/religious belief is longed for and thus a lack of such may be detrimental.

    Yet we have innumerable examples of such beliefs causing human suffering and tragedy on extraordinary scales. Removing one more catalyst for such evil things would not solve the problem--there is no silver bullet for such a thing--but it would be a step toward a ideal world nonetheless.
    Yet there are also innumerable examples of beliefs working to alleviate human suffering: Mother Teresa, Damien de Veuster, Albert Schweitzer, Siddartha Gautama, Francis of Assissi, Mohandas "Mahatma" Ghandi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., just to name a few. Is removing these definitive goods a worthy price to eradicate the putative evils?

  10. #70
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    Re: Which religious situation would you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The meaning the living give it.

    That's all there's ever been.

    The pyramids meant, to the living people who had it built, that their bodies would be preserved forever and their greatness remembered as long. To us they mean many things, not the least of which is the folly of government for wasting national treasure on such silliness.

    The concept of "meaning" doesn't exist independently of living minds.

    The invention of god served the purpose of creating a false permanence that satisfied their desires.
    agree, but I would have said desires and fears...
    The unknown still scares people, even tho it has yet to hurt them...
    Oracle of Utah
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