View Poll Results: Should the Government Raise Gasoline Taxes To Force People to Buy Fuel Efficient Cars

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  • No. Not the government's job.

    23 92.00%
  • Yes, I won't buy a hybrid unless someone tells me too

    1 4.00%
  • Yes, and people can't prove they've bought GM, they should lose their tax refund.

    1 4.00%
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Thread: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

  1. #41
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    Explain to me what good comes out of vandalism. There is an obvious marketable value to the use of a tool like cars and trucks that use fuel.
    OK then, forget about vandalism and focus on the other example I provided, as it is more analogous to what you are describing:

    If I live in a town where the local chemical plant is dumping its waste products into the reservoir, thus rendering the water undrinkable, who should pay to clean it up? All the taxpayers of the town, or the local chemical plant?
    Presumably the chemical plant is producing something of marketable value (or else it wouldn't be in business). That does not absolve them of their responsibility to not foist their expenses off onto the local taxpayers.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron
    The only possible reason for a gas tax is to provide incentive to stagnate.
    On the contrary, a gas tax encourages innovation. If gas costs $4 per gallon instead of $2 per gallon, there is a much stronger demand for fuel-efficient vehicles. This lights a fire under the asses of the auto companies to supply the market with these fuel-efficient vehicles.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-18-09 at 06:49 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Frankly I'm bewildered why any conservatives would be against this, as a gas tax is a user fee, rather than a cost to the public. I'm quite surprised to see some of the same people who argue that all roads should be toll roads arguing that everyone should have to pay for everyone else's gasoline consumption.
    You aren't paying for my gasoline consumption now, as it is. I pay for my gasoline consumption.

    What you are doing is saying, "I don't use gasoline so I think we should tax it because they are using it."

  3. #43
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You aren't paying for my gasoline consumption now, as it is. I pay for my gasoline consumption.
    You are paying the individual costs of your gasoline consumption. The taxpayers are paying the public costs of your gasoline consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    What you are doing is saying, "I don't use gasoline so I think we should tax it because they are using it."
    Who said I don't use gasoline?
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You are paying the individual costs of your gasoline consumption. The taxpayers are paying the public costs of your gasoline consumption.
    No, they are paying what is paid anyway. National security costs, environmental protection...all these things would still be necessities with or without gasoline consumption.

    Who said I don't use gasoline?
    I got that impression when you started railing about how "YOUR car affects MY lungs" or some such nonsense.

  5. #45
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, they are paying what is paid anyway. National security costs, environmental protection...all these things would still be necessities with or without gasoline consumption.
    And cleaning up my local reservoir from time to time would be a necessity as well...but having the local chemical plant dump toxic waste into it certainly doesn't help. Therefore they should be taxed/fined for the cleanup costs if they do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    I got that impression when you started railing about how "YOUR car affects MY lungs" or some such nonsense.
    The reverse is true as well. My car affects your lungs. But presumably not exactly the same amount, depending on how much we each drive, and hence we should each be taxed for our gasoline use.
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Every person in the United States does not consume gasoline at the same rate, which is why it makes sense to tax people for their use. If you really understood the free market principles which you claim to advocate, you would agree. How can you support a general tax instead of a user fee?
    I'm not supporting either.

    I'm saying the Democrats should jump all over this and put it into law as quickly as possible.

    Why would anyone think that means I support it?

    Taxing gasoline beyond the minimum required to maintain the roads the vehicles that use gasoline are driven on is wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Here's an analogy, which I'm sure will go right over your head: If there are some kids in your neighborhood who are vandalizing people's homes at night, who should be responsible for the cleanup? The kids and their parents, or the entire community?
    So you're saying a bunch of kids should pay the gasoline tax? Or are you saying that people who drive cars are kids, or is your analogy metaphorically linking cars and houses and you're suggesting that if we all went RV'ing all the problems we're facing could be gone when we come back home?

    Since the entire nation pays expenses related to transportation costs, the entire nation will pay the gasoline tax. Seriously, the Democrats have to rush this into law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Here's another analogy: If I live in a town where the local chemical plant is dumping its waste products into the reservoir, thus rendering the water undrinkable, who should pay to clean it up? All the taxpayers of the town, or the local chemical plant?
    The people upstream who peeed in the water first. Maybe the fish, they pee in water all the time, ya know. I mean, you ever see a fish flush a urinal? I never have.

    So, before we expend any more effort here, how about if you make it plain: do you support a major national gasoline tax solely to manipulate the fuel-buying public's vehicle purchases to save GM's sorry ass, or don't you?

    That is the reason for the tax in this thread. The rest of us are aware of it. Now you are, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You're funny. When you care to address the substance of what I wrote instead of being a pathetic grammar troll, be sure to let me know.
    Nope, wasn't correcting grammatic content, was questioning semantic content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's the whole point of the gas tax. If Jane feels the pinch, she'll be more likely to move closer to her job, buy a more fuel efficient automobile, and carpool or take public transit to work...thus reducing her gasoline consumption and reducing the amount of money the government needs to spend cleaning up the mess that she's created, in terms of pollution and foreign affairs.
    Then why did you suggest that the tax could be offset by monkeying with payroll tax rates? You made that suggestion because I stated the fact that the huge gas tax would crash the economy.

    Clearly random mixing and matching of your Payroll Offset with the random commuter would only randomly satisfy the aggreived taxpayer. Which would breed even more resentment, so I agree wholeheartedly the Democrats should incorporate this payroll tax offset to balance the gasoline tax idea fully.

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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The soccer mom is paying the gas tax in the price of her groceries.

    As for heat/AC, I would be inclined to support a similar tax on other oil-based products besides gasoline, so that this would affect me equally (assuming I consumed as much oil from my heat/AC as you did from your Mustang.)



    It makes perfect sense to tax things that we want less of, such as gasoline consumption. A higher price will ALWAYS reduce demand.
    It makes perfect sense to not buy things you don't want.

    It makes little sense to tax things you don't want, it merely makes sense if you're taxing things you don't want other people to want.

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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Frankly I'm bewildered why any conservatives would be against this, as a gas tax is a user fee, rather than a cost to the public.
    A multi-level statement of ignorance.

    The tax proposed is not a "user fee". A user fee is a tax on a product or service amortizing the cost of providing the goods or services across the expected number of clients. The tax proposed has no agenda other than artificially driving up the sale price of gasoline to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. The tax revenues will be placed in the national general fund and used with no specificity whatsoever.

    Another level of ignorance is shown by the claim that a tax, any tax, isn't a cost to the public. All taxes transfer money from the public to the government. The tax proposed will transfer money by the ton, at enormous cost to the public.

    You got any clue why LAST year was the year the turds hit the rotating air displacement device? Because last year the people barely making the mortgages they couldn't afford were struck down en masse with a sudden catastrophic surge in gasoline prices that overtopped their ability to meet their other obligations.

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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I'm not supporting either.
    Bull****. The government WILL pay for environmental cleanup, anti-terrorism operations, and the wear and tear of our roads. A gas tax is not suddenly creating a new list of things that the government has to pay for...it's simply acknowledging ones that already exist, and billing the appropriate people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Taxing gasoline beyond the minimum required to maintain the roads the vehicles that use gasoline are driven on is wrong.
    So you don't believe the government should do anything at all about pollution? You don't believe the government should do anything at all about the fact that terrorists are financed by governments which are financed by American gasoline consumers? You don't believe the government should do anything at all about our dependence on Russia and Venezuela for our oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    So you're saying a bunch of kids should pay the gasoline tax? Or are you saying that people who drive cars are kids, or is your analogy metaphorically linking cars and houses and you're suggesting that if we all went RV'ing all the problems we're facing could be gone when we come back home?
    I told you it would go right over your head. Others understood the basic analogy and responded with relevant questions and counterarguments, but I realize I can't expect you to do the same. Just forget it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Since the entire nation pays expenses related to transportation costs, the entire nation will pay the gasoline tax. Seriously, the Democrats have to rush this into law.
    Not every single person in the nation consumes gasoline at the same rate. This is essentially a user fee, not a general tax. By opposing this, you are supporting taxing all Americans for the mess that others created.

    For someone who claims to be as gung-ho about the free market as you do, your revulsion at user fees is quite puzzling. Any intelligent free-market advocate - as opposed to someone who just spouts talking points about The Free Market they heard from Rush, without actually understanding them - would support a gasoline tax. Milton Friedman did, and Gregory Mankiw does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    So, before we expend any more effort here, how about if you make it plain: do you support a major national gasoline tax solely to manipulate the fuel-buying public's vehicle purchases to save GM's sorry ass, or don't you?
    Nope, I support a major national gasoline tax to discourage gasoline consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Then why did you suggest that the tax could be offset by monkeying with payroll tax rates? You made that suggestion because I stated the fact that the huge gas tax would crash the economy.
    Right. If it's just a matter of you thinking taxes would be too high if we added one more, then that problem can easily be solved by reducing payroll taxes by an appropriate amount, to make the gas tax revenue-neutral.
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Bull****. The government WILL pay for environmental cleanup, anti-terrorism operations, and the wear and tear of our roads. A gas tax is not suddenly creating a new list of things that the government has to pay for...it's simply acknowledging ones that already exist, and billing the appropriate people.
    Is this your confession that you still do not have a clue what the purpose of the tax under discussion is about?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you don't believe the government should do anything at all about pollution?
    Nope. The polluters made the mess, let them pay to fix it. No reason the taxpayers need to foot the bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You don't believe the government should do anything at all about the fact that terrorists are financed by governments which are financed by American gasoline consumers?
    Sure do. We should nuke countries whose national governments are sponsoring terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You don't believe the government should do anything at all about our dependence on Russia and Venezuela for our oil?
    Yes, it should get out of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I told you it would go right over your head. Others understood the basic analogy and responded with relevant questions and counterarguments, but I realize I can't expect you to do the same. Just forget it.
    I just noted the irrelevancy of your analogy to the thread and took it from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not every single person in the nation consumes gasoline at the same rate.
    You went to school to figure that one out, didn't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This is essentially a user fee, not a general tax.
    No, since everyone pays some part of it, it's an economy-buster of a general tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    By opposing this, you are supporting taxing all Americans for the mess that others created.
    Perhaps.

    I suspect other posters understand fully why I insist the Democrats push this idea forward immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    For someone who claims to be as gung-ho about the free market as you do, your revulsion at user fees is quite puzzling.
    I don't have a revulsion towards user fees.

    The tax proposed isn't a user fee. Just because it's attached to a specific product doesn't mean it's a user fee. You need to work harder at fixing those definitions in your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Any intelligent free-market advocate - as opposed to someone who just spouts talking points about The Free Market they heard from Rush, without actually understanding them - would support a gasoline tax. Milton Friedman did, and Gregory Mankiw does.
    Depends on the purpose of the tax, depends on what other taxes are relieved to offset the expense of the new tax. Neither of those conditions apply to the tax proposed by the CEO of GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Nope, I support a major national gasoline tax to discourage gasoline consumption.
    And....you've been granted the right to control how other people live their lives by which act of God that somehow didn't get in the news, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Right. If it's just a matter of you thinking taxes would be too high if we added one more, then that problem can easily be solved by reducing payroll taxes by an appropriate amount, to make the gas tax revenue-neutral.
    So...you think it's equitable to monkey randomly with the payroll tax in the random hopes that you can randomly ensnare some people who buy more gas than others, in the hopes that this won't engender specific resentment on all levels towards the people creating the tax intended to manipulate the public for no good reason at all?

    Hey, if that's what it takes to get the Democrats to enact this tax, I'm with ya, buddy.

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