View Poll Results: Should the Government Raise Gasoline Taxes To Force People to Buy Fuel Efficient Cars

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  • No. Not the government's job.

    23 92.00%
  • Yes, I won't buy a hybrid unless someone tells me too

    1 4.00%
  • Yes, and people can't prove they've bought GM, they should lose their tax refund.

    1 4.00%
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Thread: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

  1. #31
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I agree, it does have an environmental impact. But until you are willing to have everything you use shipped to you via carrier pigeon or cart and horse, you in no way have a right to impose an obscenely high tax on those who drive.
    Taxpayers are paying for environmental cleanup, fighting terrorism, and our weakening geopolitical position anyway. I'd rather the people who contribute the most to these problems be the ones who contribute the most to fixing them. Why don't you?
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What are you talking about? Do you deny that the American taxpayers - not just Hummer drivers - bear the cost for environmental cleanup and fighting terrorism?
    Yes, because that is not how American society works.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #33
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Taxpayers are paying for environmental cleanup, fighting terrorism, and our weakening geopolitical position anyway. I'd rather the people who contribute the most to these problems be the ones who contribute the most to fixing them. Why don't you?
    Because me driving my mustang twice a week isn't contributing any more than you running your heat or AC full blast or soccer mom buying groceries that were shipped across the country. It's just a knee-jerk, emotional reaction to say..."Ooooh...gas...yeah...gas is bad. Let's tax that some more."

  4. #34
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Right here, post #12:
    "The people who are most responsible for those externalities should most certainly have to pay for them, instead of passing the burden off to the American public as a whole."
    Every person in the United States does not consume gasoline at the same rate, which is why it makes sense to tax people for their use. If you really understood the free market principles which you claim to advocate, you would agree. How can you support a general tax instead of a user fee?

    Here's an analogy, which I'm sure will go right over your head: If there are some kids in your neighborhood who are vandalizing people's homes at night, who should be responsible for the cleanup? The kids and their parents, or the entire community?

    Here's another analogy: If I live in a town where the local chemical plant is dumping its waste products into the reservoir, thus rendering the water undrinkable, who should pay to clean it up? All the taxpayers of the town, or the local chemical plant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Pollution is funded by the government? Terrorism is funded by the government? This isn't Iran, dude.
    You're funny. When you care to address the substance of what I wrote instead of being a pathetic grammar troll, be sure to let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Pretty simple...so lets look at two workers who earn identical salaries and will thus get equal amounts of money back from a tax cut.

    There's Joe, who lives two miles from work and buys five gallons of gas a week, will pay $10 a week in gas tax, and then there's Jane, who commutes sixty miles each way daily and buys fifty gallons of gas a week, paying $100 a week in gas tax in this example. They both get a $15 a week tax savings.

    Joe's happy. Joe has no incentive to cut his gasoline consumption, heck he can afford a couple more gallons and not see any impact. He's planning a road trip to Las Vegas.

    How do you think Jane's doing?

    See how simple it was to show that your suggestion doesn't work?
    That's the whole point of the gas tax. If Jane feels the pinch, she'll be more likely to move closer to her job, buy a more fuel efficient automobile, and carpool or take public transit to work...thus reducing her gasoline consumption and reducing the amount of money the government needs to spend cleaning up the mess that she's created, in terms of pollution and foreign affairs.
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  5. #35
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Because me driving my mustang twice a week isn't contributing any more than you running your heat or AC full blast or soccer mom buying groceries that were shipped across the country.
    The soccer mom is paying the gas tax in the price of her groceries.

    As for heat/AC, I would be inclined to support a similar tax on other oil-based products besides gasoline, so that this would affect me equally (assuming I consumed as much oil from my heat/AC as you did from your Mustang.)

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    It's just a knee-jerk, emotional reaction to say..."Ooooh...gas...yeah...gas is bad. Let's tax that some more."
    It makes perfect sense to tax things that we want less of, such as gasoline consumption. A higher price will ALWAYS reduce demand.
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  6. #36
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The soccer mom is paying the gas tax in the price of her groceries.

    As for heat/AC, I would be inclined to support a similar tax on other oil-based products besides gasoline, so that this would affect me equally (assuming I consumed as much oil from my heat/AC as you did from your Mustang.)
    I highly doubt you don't. My mustang gets driven, on average, twice a week. And even then it's only about 4 miles to a grocery store which buys most produce locally (as in, from surrounding farmers).

    My heat and AC consumption is minimal. Hell, the heat didn't even come on for the first time this year until mid January and last year it didn't come on until late November. I don't use AC at all because it's just retarded to not enjoy the warmth when you have it. I also understand that I am an anomaly in those regards and do not expect the same from others.

    And no, the soccer mom is not being hit hard with her grocery bill on this tax. Vehicle owners are being hit specifically with this tax and they are already taxed enough for owning a car. I see nothing reasonable about localising the burden of treating a global problem onto gas consumers, commuters, farm workers, etc.

  7. #37
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If there are some kids in your neighborhood who are vandalizing people's homes at night.
    Right there is the foundation for your entire argument. Comparing Vandals to businesses and people who drive to work to generate income and goods and services is inane. When you tax those businesses and people who need cars to commute and GENERATE goods and services you CUT the ability to generate those goods and services. Period. So what if you dont drive? Do you have electricity or water? Do you eat? Massive amounts of gasoline use is giving you use of many goods and services you would not otherwise have. You support not only cutting your own throat but others as well.
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  8. #38
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There is reason to rush it. Every year that we wait is another year that terrorists receive funding from American consumers, another year that car exhausts pollute our atmosphere, and another year that the United States is dependent on petrocracies.
    Way to play the fear card George W. Besides, we already had $4 a gallon gas, without the massive gas tax this fool proposed in the OP. Somehow the price of gas seems to be tied to the overall state of our economy. I'd rather see gas driven up to $4 a gallon, due to a booming economy and increase in demand, than an artificial inflation by the government that wouldn't help the economy in any forseeable way. If a $2+ gas tax gets added on "just because", then that $4 gas last summer would have been $6-7 a gallon, something alot of us normal folk cannot afford, hybrid or not. It was bad enough for me when I had to pay $4 a gallon. There's no way I could afford $4 a gallon and a car payment on a brand new hybrid car or a recently used one.
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  9. #39
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    Right there is the foundation for your entire argument. Comparing Vandals to businesses and people who drive to work to generate income and goods and services is inane.
    No it isn't. Vandals destroy property for which the homeowner then has to pay. Gasoline consumers destroy the environment and national security for which the US government then has to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron
    When you tax those businesses and people who need cars to commute and GENERATE goods and services you CUT the ability to generate those goods and services. Period.
    Irrelevant. If the local government sues or taxes or fines Acme Widgets for dumping toxic waste into the local reservoir, we might be cutting their ability to produce goods and services. But we do it anyway, because the ones who are responsible should have to pay for the cleanup, not society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron
    So what if you dont drive?
    I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron
    Do you have electricity or water? Do you eat? Massive amounts of gasoline use is giving you use of many goods and services you would not otherwise have. You support not only cutting your own throat but others as well.
    I have no qualms about paying for my share of the public consequences that result from my personal gasoline use.

    Frankly I'm bewildered why any conservatives would be against this, as a gas tax is a user fee, rather than a cost to the public. I'm quite surprised to see some of the same people who argue that all roads should be toll roads arguing that everyone should have to pay for everyone else's gasoline consumption.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-18-09 at 06:40 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Re: I Think Democrats Should Push All Out For This One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No it isn't. .
    Explain to me what good comes out of vandalism. There is an obvious marketable value to the use of a tool like cars and trucks that use fuel.

    The government has more than enough money to cure cancer and make flying cars that run on water. There is no incentive at the federal level due to interest groups involvement in the government and Puppet Presidents whose primary goal is to keep the focus off the bankers.

    The only possible reason for a gas tax is to provide incentive to stagnate.
    Last edited by akyron; 03-18-09 at 06:47 PM.
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