View Poll Results: Federal (Income) Tax. You Pick the Rate.

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  • 5%

    22 37.93%
  • 10%

    10 17.24%
  • 15%

    4 6.90%
  • 20%

    7 12.07%
  • 25%

    5 8.62%
  • 30%

    2 3.45%
  • 35%

    3 5.17%
  • 40%

    2 3.45%
  • 45%

    1 1.72%
  • 50% and higher

    2 3.45%
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Thread: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

  1. #21
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    We also spent about 300 billion on the war on drugs last year.
    This is wildly inaccurate. Link?

    Why isn't 0% an option? There should be no income tax, it is unconstitutional.
    Also wildly inaccurate.

    Income Tax Page
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  2. #22
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is wildly inaccurate. Link?
    Widely inactive is an understatement lol. This site has always been accurate: War On Drugs Clock
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  3. #23
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    I disagree. We spent about 529 billion dollars on military spending alone last year, not even counting the trillion or so we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. We also spent about 300 billion on the war on drugs last year.
    From where did you get that statistic? As wasteful as the war on drugs is, I think it strains credibility that we spend THAT much...

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis
    Dramatic cuts in spending by ending our overseas empire, bringing our troops home, closing costly bases in countries that we don't need to have troops in, and legalizing drugs will allow us to cut the income tax and still raise enough money to cover our expenses (except for interest on the debt, but I'll address that below).
    Wishful thinking. The income tax brings in $1.4 trillion of revenue. Even if we completely eliminated the Department of Defense (which we obviously can't do), that would only cover HALF the cost of eliminating the income tax.

    Legalizing drugs would be some small, insignificant fraction of that cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis
    Why isn't 0% an option? There should be no income tax, it is unconstitutional.
    Uhh we have a constitutional amendment specifically authorizing it. If something that has been specifically authorized isn't constitutional, then there REALLY isn't much that's constitutional.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis
    If we cut spending, there would be no need for an income tax. An income tax makes the assertion that the government owns your wages, and allows you to keep a percentage of it. If we cut the income tax to 0 right now, we would raise the same amount as we had in our budget in 1997.
    Our government doesn't generate enough revenue to pay for itself NOW, let alone if our revenue base was reduced to 1997 levels.

    And cutting spending during a severe economic contraction would be devastating.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis
    We also need to end the Federal Reserve system responsible for the interest on the debt and the inflation.
    Because the gold standard did such a great job preventing wild economic swings?

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis
    Inflation is the hardest tax on the poor and middle class, and is essentially a tax. Of course at a time when the government is firing up the printing press every day for another billion dollars to give bonuses to corrupt CEO's, it is very hard to believe a period of even worse (perhaps even pre WWII Germany hyper) inflation.
    The main monetary problem we have to worry about right now is DEFLATION. Under the circumstances, I really don't mind the government firing up the printing press every day, as long as they don't overdo it. It will help counteract the deflation.

    Obviously this would be unthinkable under most economic conditions, but right now it's not such a bad idea.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Yeah that was a typo, it's 30 billion a year on the war on drugs. Added a 0 by accident. Still, 30 billion is a boat load of money. We could easily cut that 30 billion and then tax drugs, which would work out as a great profit for the government.

    Our debt is owed mostly to the executives who own the private Federal Reserve bank. The Fed prints money and loans it to the government at interest. We pay for our money at interest, a brilliant philosophy. If we ended the Fed, or at least gave the power to print money to the government like it says in the Constitution, we could eliminate the vast majority of our national debt (except for the few billion owed to Chinese banks and the Saudis). That billion dollar stimulus package Obama just signed, our great great great grandkids will still be paying the interest on that to the Fed. The only consolation is that our fiat currency will not last that long, so maybe we can wipe the slate clean with a new currency. The gold standard doesn't stop market fluctuations, that's mostly the businesses and consumers, all it does it provide an honest money system. Money is backed by something with intrinsic value, which prevents a total and absolute collapse of the economy and dollar system, like what we will experience one day (probably sooner than later).

    The 16th Ammendment has been ruled by several state supereme courts as being unconstitutional. One judge even remarked that the appropriate number of signatures needed to pass the bill was never achieved. The bill was passed when Congress was on Christmas holiday and it was written all by private central bankers, not by Congressmen. Why do you think there was such a struggle historically to keep central banks out of the United States before 1913? The Fed was responsible for the Great Depression and the Fed is responsible for this one, but they try to blame it on free market capitalism.

    I'm not worried about deflation at all. Prices are supposed to go down when the market dictates it. What the Fed does by artificially propping up housing prices and artificially lowering interest rates on mortgages is create a bubble, kind of like what we just experienced. Even Keynesians know that. You have the let the market fluctuate, it is the only fair system. Plus, by printing so much and saturating our market with too many dollars, it will make our currency worthless toilet paper. When we declared Bretton-Woods dead in '71, we promised we wouldn't print too much money and lower the value of the dollar. Pretty soon the rest of the world will get a clue and realize we have no idea what we're doing over here and stop buying our treasury bonds as security. Then we'll really be screwed.

  5. #25
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    Our debt is owed mostly to the executives who own the private Federal Reserve bank. The Fed prints money and loans it to the government at interest. We pay for our money at interest, a brilliant philosophy. If we ended the Fed, or at least gave the power to print money to the government like it says in the Constitution, we could eliminate the vast majority of our national debt (except for the few billion owed to Chinese banks and the Saudis).
    I don't think that's how it actually works.

    That billion dollar stimulus package Obama just signed, our great great great grandkids will still be paying the interest on that to the Fed. The only consolation is that our fiat currency will not last that long, so maybe we can wipe the slate clean with a new currency. The gold standard doesn't stop market fluctuations, that's mostly the businesses and consumers, all it does it provide an honest money system. Money is backed by something with intrinsic value, which prevents a total and absolute collapse of the economy and dollar system, like what we will experience one day (probably sooner than later).
    Gold's only value comes from the fact that people desire it. People also desire US currency. There's no difference.

    The 16th Ammendment has been ruled by several state supereme courts as being unconstitutional.
    Setting aside the fact that state supreme courts don't get the last word on federal constitutional questions, no, it hasn't. Did you read the link I showed you?

    One judge even remarked that the appropriate number of signatures needed to pass the bill was never achieved.
    Link?
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  6. #26
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    I've read the information on that link before. However, he fails to explain how about 3 to 4 people per year beat the IRS in tax cases (and maybe 8 or 9 this year since most of Obama's Cabinet members don't pay their taxes). And I may not have articulated the creation of money very well, so here's a link that provides more information: End The Federal Reserve Bank - Sound Money For America!

    The main idea that the Federal Reserve is no more of a federal agency that Federal Express is ridiculous. It explicitly says in the Constitution that it is the government's right alone to create the money supply. We made an unconstitutional ammendment to the Consitution, and we need to rectify our error. JFK tried it with Executive Order 111001 (or something like that) before he was killed and LBJ never pursued it further. Now Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and other people are trying to pass H.R. 855 but it will never get passed.

    Lastly, yes people still desire US dollars for now, for some reason. But what happens when we print too many dollars and other countries don't want to take it anymore? Then what do we do?

  7. #27
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    I've read the information on that link before. However, he fails to explain how about 3 to 4 people per year beat the IRS in tax cases (and maybe 8 or 9 this year since most of Obama's Cabinet members don't pay their taxes).
    Yes he does.

    Another frequent protestor mistake is misunderstanding the result of criminal cases. Tax protestors will point out that, on rare occasions, protestors prosecuted for income tax crimes are acquitted. Protestors cite these cases as though they prove the defendants' tax protestor theories were correct.

    Of course such cases prove nothing of the kind. As explained in detail here, a special rule applies to criminal tax cases: the government must prove, not only that the defendant owed taxes and failed to pay, but that the defendant knew he or she was breaking the tax laws. Therefore, if the defendant truly believed that he or she didn't owe any taxes, the defendant is not guilty of the crime charged, even if the basis of the defendant's belief was a crazy tax protestor theory. This doesn't prove that the protestor theory is correct, but only that the defendant believed it. (Or rather, that the government failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant didn't believe it.)
    And I may not have articulated the creation of money very well, so here's a link that provides more information: End The Federal Reserve Bank - Sound Money For America!
    Its not that it wasn't articulated clearly, it's that it was just plain wrong. You can't eliminate debt simply by saying "oh, it's owed to the actual government now, not the fed."

    Lastly, yes people still desire US dollars for now, for some reason. But what happens when we print too many dollars and other countries don't want to take it anymore? Then what do we do?
    What happens if people decide they don't want gold anymore? Then what do we do?
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  8. #28
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Flat tax, 10% or less if it must be income tax. Everyone pays their fair share and fair share is equal percentage for all. No discrimination. And none of this riding on the backs of others bull****.
    That many require and have to pay for professional hand holders to deal with government about our money is perverse.

    What's worse is if we slip, we get torched.
    If a Cabinet nominee knowingly skirts the law, he is praised and gets appointed.
    Geithner should be sharing a cell with Madoff for 6 to 12 months.

    We should be able to pay our taxes on a form no larger than a beer mat... and knowing Washington, the text on the Beer Mat form cannot be made any smaller than Times New Roman 14pt.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    The point I was trying to make is why do we owe debt to anyone?? That was exactly the point our Founding Fathers were trying to make. That's why there was so much opposition to a central bank historically in this country. Why did Kennedy eliminate the Fed through executive order then? The Constitution specifically gave the power to coin money to the government alone, not to a central bank. Franklin said one of the primary reasons for the Revolution is that Britain made the Colonies take bank notes from the central bank of England, putting them deep into debt. We need a debt free currency, that's how we eliminate the natural debt. It's not a federal agency!!! That's ridiculous that a private corporation is in charge of our money. Of course they would want a debt-based currency, then they always have power because we always owe them something. It's a ridiculously stupid way of creating currency.

    And for the record, gold has had intrinsic value and has been desired since the ancient Egyptian empire, maybe even before that. Our dollar has been around in its current state since 1971. I think I'll take my bet on gold lasting longer in value than the dollar. Just throwing that out there.

  10. #30
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    The point I was trying to make is why do we owe debt to anyone??
    Because we choose to borrow.

    That was exactly the point our Founding Fathers were trying to make.
    Link? We had debt at the founding of the country,

    Why did Kennedy eliminate the Fed through executive order then?
    Link?

    The Constitution specifically gave the power to coin money to the government alone, not to a central bank.
    The government does print money.

    Who prints money in USA? - Blurtit

    It's not a federal agency!!! That's ridiculous that a private corporation is in charge of our money.
    You keep on talking that the Fed is a private corporation. This is a complete misunderstanding of how the Fed works. The fed is a quasi-public institution.

    Of course they would want a debt-based currency, then they always have power because we always owe them something.
    THE FED IS NOT OWED ANYTHING. THE TREASURY HOLDS THE DEBT.

    And for the record, gold has had intrinsic value and has been desired since the ancient Egyptian empire, maybe even before that. Our dollar has been around in its current state since 1971.
    Lol, no.

    I think I'll take my bet on gold lasting longer in value than the dollar. Just throwing that out there.
    If the global economy ever collapses to the point that the US dollar is worthless, gold won't do much either.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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