View Poll Results: Federal (Income) Tax. You Pick the Rate.

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  • 5%

    22 37.93%
  • 10%

    10 17.24%
  • 15%

    4 6.90%
  • 20%

    7 12.07%
  • 25%

    5 8.62%
  • 30%

    2 3.45%
  • 35%

    3 5.17%
  • 40%

    2 3.45%
  • 45%

    1 1.72%
  • 50% and higher

    2 3.45%
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Thread: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

  1. #111
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What do you consider a "fair" rate of taxation.
    Flat Tax or Consumption Tax.
    Same rate for all.

    No graduated taxation in this poll.
    I would support a 30% National Sales Tax so long as the 16th Amendment was overturned, the IRS eliminated, and the income tax done away with. I also do not think that food, transportation, or energy should be taxed at all.
    There is nothing more dangerous to the liberty of Man than a Government or a Religion seizing upon the strings of an overdeveloped herd instinct amongst the people.

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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Why was 0% not an option?!

    If government is a social contract, then when did I sign it? The moment I came out of my mom? Do I have a right to terminate my status in the social contract? Am I a slave by birth?
    Sure, you can opt out. You can't use the roads or rely on the police or fire departments or any government agency. You can't drink water from a public utility nor use it's currency to purchase things. Move to Alaska, go out into the wilderness and build a cabin to live in. Of course you can't get there by using a car since you'd have to use money to buy a car and you can't use the roads so you'l have to walk. Of course you can't buy shoes or an axe to chop down the trees to build the cabin but you could make a sharp rock and whittle a bow and arrow to catch some food, use the hide to cover your feet...

  3. #113
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TM2 View Post
    I favor a very progressive tax. I think that a flat tax is oppressive. I also believe that if you are living below a certain percentage you shouldn't have to pay an income tax at all ( the percentage is debatable). the reason being is that in a civilized society we should do everything we can to fight for the poorer members of society and benefit them in any way we can. They shouldn't pay taxes. We should be attempting to improve all society. Part of that must be helping the poor and if one of the ways to do that is to not have an income tax upon them, then so be it.
    Don't you know that those people are poor because they are just lazy? Why shouldn't we just let lazy people drop dead in the street? Sure, they might turn to crime before they starved to death but then that just shows that the poor are all criminals. [/con rant]

  4. #114
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Because person X made more money from the labor of everyone else than person Y.
    Not necessarily. If I write software or run my own accounting practice I can make millions off just my own hard work.

    Sure, there are businesses that higher people and they pay those people at least a minimum wage. They are COMPENSATED for their work. If the wage is too small then they can refuse to work.

    For example, if someone tried to higher me to write software for minimum wage I wouldn't do it. In fact, when I graduated from college I turned down a few offers out of college because they didn't want to pay less than the going rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Person X cannot make his money without person Y, so in order to make sure that person Y keeps making it possible for person X to make his money, person X pays more.
    That doesn't make sense. I didn't say the government won't collect taxes. Person X can make money whether or not he pays more money to the government or not. The government shouldn't collect more taxes from people above the poverty line just because they are wealthy. Its unjust discrimination against those who have done well for themselves. There are plenty of ways the government can achieve citizen happiness and fair play without such egregious discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    You can't get your trucking fleet out of your warehouse without a road and you'd never be profitable making the roads yourself.
    The roads were probably there before person X even started his company. Person Y has the same ability to make a company and use the roads the person X does with his company. The government doesn't build the roads exclusively for person X. Moreover, person Y couldn't be paid unless person X used those roads to turn a profit. It doesn't make sense that you charge person X more simply because person X takes advantage of the fact the the roads exist when person Y has equal opportunity to do the same.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  5. #115
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Not necessarily. If I write software or run my own accounting practice I can make millions off just my own hard work.
    Do I really have to reverse engineer your electricity or internet connection the way we got Mr. Opt out to a cabin in Alaska?

    Sure, there are businesses that higher people and they pay those people at least a minimum wage. They are COMPENSATED for their work. If the wage is too small then they can refuse to work.
    Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. Well, unions sorta made it work but the rich have made the idea of unions, not just the word, a bad thing.

    For example, if someone tried to higher me to write software for minimum wage I wouldn't do it. In fact, when I graduated from college I turned down a few offers out of college because they didn't want to pay less than the going rate.
    If you were out of work long enough I bet you'd do it.

    T
    hat doesn't make sense. I didn't say the government won't collect taxes. Person X can make money whether or not he pays more money to the government or not. The government shouldn't collect more taxes from people above the poverty line just because they are wealthy. Its unjust discrimination against those who have done well for themselves. There are plenty of ways the government can achieve citizen happiness and fair play without such egregious discrimination.
    Really, how? Unions?
    It's not unjust discrimination, it's saying, - hey, you've done really well in figuring out how to take advantage of the efforts of the rest of the population and you should be grateful you live in a country that gave you the opportunity to do so well. Now we'd like you to give back a little more then the people who can't or didn't do so well. It won't hurt you much but it will help them a LOT. Thanks - does that help you any?

    The roads were probably there before person X even started his company. Person Y has the same ability to make a company and use the roads the person X does with his company. The government doesn't build the roads exclusively for person X. Moreover, person Y couldn't be paid unless person X used those roads to turn a profit. It doesn't make sense that you charge person X more simply because person X takes advantage of the fact the the roads exist when person Y has equal opportunity to do the same.
    The roads have to be maintained.

  6. #116
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What do you consider a "fair" rate of taxation.
    Flat Tax or Consumption Tax.
    Same rate for all.

    No graduated taxation in this poll.
    0%

    I mean it...0%....the governement can go get a ****ing job.

  7. #117
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Sure, you can opt out. You can't use the roads or rely on the police or fire departments or any government agency. You can't drink water from a public utility nor use it's currency to purchase things. Move to Alaska, go out into the wilderness and build a cabin to live in. Of course you can't get there by using a car since you'd have to use money to buy a car and you can't use the roads so you'l have to walk. Of course you can't buy shoes or an axe to chop down the trees to build the cabin but you could make a sharp rock and whittle a bow and arrow to catch some food, use the hide to cover your feet...
    Everything you mentioned can be privatized, so I do not understand your point.

  8. #118
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Do I really have to reverse engineer your electricity or internet connection the way we got Mr. Opt out to a cabin in Alaska?
    So you are saying that the government provides electricity and internet connection? Because private businesses do that. Some companies even make roads, highways, and bridges

    The government does REGULATE some businesses to ensure fair prices and just practices but it does not control them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Sure, there are businesses that higher people and they pay those people at least a minimum wage. They are COMPENSATED for their work. If the wage is too small then they can refuse to work.
    Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way.
    And why should I believe that? Because you say so?

    You seem to have forgotten that you either need to show why my answer is wrong or why your answer is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    If you were out of work long enough I bet you'd do it.
    And if China invades or a super virus causes mass death, or any other of the infinite "what-if" scenarios happen I'm sure I'd do something different too. But currently and in the foreseeable future, if someone tried to higher me to write software for minimum wage I wouldn't do it and neither would any of my colleagues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Really, how?
    Minimum wage, grants, constructing public use infrastructure, forcing companies to pay long term disability, 401k matching, social security taxes. I'm sure there is more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It's not unjust discrimination, it's saying, - hey, you've done really well in figuring out how to take advantage of the efforts of the rest of the population and you should be grateful you live in a country that gave you the opportunity to do so well. Now we'd like you to give back a little more then the people who can't or didn't do so well. It won't hurt you much but it will help them a LOT.
    The government is the LAST entity who should "give back to the people." The government (I.E., politicians) is incompetent, inefficient, and driven more by special interests and pandering to the nearsighted demands of constituent's than the general public need--at least in most cases. You seem to think that if I pay X more dollars per year the government will magically put that into the wallets of those "who can't or didn't do so well". That is a pipe dream and you damn well know it.

    I'm not saying that the government doesn't have some diamonds in the rough, its just that shoving more money into the governments coffers is likely to get you bird sanctuaries and anti-marijuana ads then its going to help the pwoor wittle people.

    Your intentions are virtuous and great in theory but impractical. If anything that extra tax payer money will go to something like Pelosi's mouse sanctuary. Stimulus has $30M to save Pelosi's harvest mouse - Washington Times

    Here some more of that extra money that gets put toward those ""who can't or didn't do so well" What GOP Leaders deem wasteful in Senate stimulus bill - CNN.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    The roads have to be maintained.
    Roads can be easily maintained and expanded without tax discrimination based on income or wealth.
    Last edited by scourge99; 05-16-09 at 02:06 AM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  9. #119
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Everything you mentioned can be privatized, so I do not understand your point.
    Really? You don't understand it or you're being obtuse? Maybe this will help.

    What Could be a Day in the Life of a Conservative

    Joe Conservative wakes up in the morning and goes to the bathroom. He flushes his toilet and brushes his teeth, mindful that, each flush & brush costs him about 43 cents to his privatized water provider. His wacky, liberal neighbor keeps badgering the company to disclose how clean and safe their water is, but no one ever finds out. Just to be safe, Joe Conservative boils his drinking water, using more of the limited energy that he pays for.

    Joe steps outside and coughs--the pollution is especially bad today, but the smokiest cars are the cheapest ones, and since they got rid of the bloated government beaurocracy formerly called the EPA, no one knows how polluted the air actually is. Since there is no truth in advertising laws, everyone buys the cheap chinese cars which seem to produce the most pollution, but who knows? And really, who cares because they are cheap. Joe Conservative checks to make sure he has enough toll money for the 3 different private roads he must drive to work. There is no public transportation, so traffic is backed up and his 10 mile commute takes an hour. Joe and his daughter don their respirators for the hour (look an industry has been created by the free market!).

    On the way, he drops his 12 year old daughter off at the clothing factory she works at. Since there are no regulations against child labor Joe appreciates the extra income. Paying for kids to go to private school until they're 18 is a luxury, and Joe canít afford to get the latest cool thing to impress his buddies without that extra income. Times are hard and there're no social safety nets so you gotta buy everything you can before you canít work anymore.

    He gets to work 5 minutes late and misses the call for Christian prayer, and is immediately docked by his employer. He is not feeling well today, but has no health insurance, since neither his employer nor his government provide it, and paying for it himself is really expensive, since he has a precondition. He just hopes for the best.

    Joe's workday is 12 hours long, because there is no regulation on working hours, and Joe will lose his job if he complains or god forbid, tries to unionize. Today is an especially bad day because Joe's manager demands that he work until midnight, a 16 hour day. Joe does so, knowing that he'll lose his job if he does not. The good news is that he can call his daughter and tell her to work late too, since he canít afford child care. Heíll just pick her up on his way home. Too bad neither employer has to pay over-time.

    Finally, after midnight, Joe gets to pick up his daughter and go home. His daughter shows him the deep cut she got on the industrial sewing machine today. Joe is outraged and asks why she doesn't have metal mesh gloves or other protection. She says the company will not provide it and she'll have to pay for it out of her own pocket. Joe looks at the wound and decides they'll use an over the counter disinfectant and bandages until it heals. She'll have a scar, but getting stitches at the emergency room is expensive.

    His daughter also complains that the manager made suggestive overtures towards her. Joe counsels her to be a "good girl" and not rock the boat, or she'll get fired and they'll be out the income.

    His daughter says she can't wait until she's 18 so she can vote for change or go to the Iraq War. Unfortunately, Joe reminds his daughter that women canít vote anymore because Joeís Church, which is now the 4th branch of government, says that Jesus thinks adult women should stay home and take care of the household and stay out of politics which is for men.

    They get home and there's a message from his elderly father who can't afford to pay his medical or heating bills. Joe can hear him coughing and shivering. But Joe understands that his father must suffer for not saving enough to live on after he couldnít work anymore, at 83. Sure, he had some stock and a retirement package but the company filed for bankruptcy a few years back to get out from under itís debt after the former CEO ran off with hundreds of millions and the current CEO is getting fired for poor performance. He still gets 300 million in severance pay, however.

    Joe turns on the radio and the top story is a proposal in Congress to raise the voting age to 25. A rare liberal pundant states that it's an attempt to keep power out of the hands of working class Americans. The conservative host immediately quashes him, calling him "a utopian idealist," and agreeing that people aren't mature enough to make good choices until they're at least 25 and as long as they are white male property owners. Later that evening the cable news reports that the liberal pundant was arrested for having subversive materials on his home PC, which was immediately searched even before he had left the radio station.

    Joe chuckles at the wine-swilling, cheese eating liberal egghead and thinks, "Thank God I live in America where I have freedom!"

  10. #120
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    Re: Federal Income Tax. You Pick the Rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    The problem is that a country NEEDS some socialism or else you end up with a plutocracy. Our nation is wealthy and progressive because of the socialism in our system.

    Can you name another country with the kind of system you repubs want? One without socialism?
    Progressive taxation does not constitute "socialism." Socialism necessitates the collective ownership of the means of production. Progressive taxation actually serves to uphold capitalism, considering that the diminishing rate of marginal utility ensures that the physical efficiency of the workforce can be maintained through welfare programs without depriving the upper class of anything of comparable significance.

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