View Poll Results: Should Airline Pilots Have The Option to Arm Themselves?

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Thread: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

  1. #31
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by bilbus View Post
    thats why pilots and marshals who are trained and tested should be the only ones to carry.
    This conversation departed on a tangent when Scarecrow started arguing for the insanity of everyone on planes being armed to the teeth.

    Quote Originally Posted by bilbus
    Arent the pilot's gun locked up in the cockpit?
    Obviously hijackers can get into the cockpit with a little effort, or else hijacking wouldn't exist.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And when Gomer Pyle brings his gun on the plane legally and Abdullah is sitting next to him, suddenly Abdullah has access to a gun...even if Abdullah could never get one on the plane himself.
    There you go again, assuming gun owners are brainless and inept.

    BTW, thanks for the "hicks" comment. Your demonstration of tolerance and civility is truly inspiring. Of course it is perfectly safe to use pejorative terms aimed at Southerners, Midwesterners or rural folks, whereas if you spoke thus about an ethnic group you'd be branded a bigot. Hm.

    Let's see... "concealed weapon permit". That means the gun is hidden. So the first thing the Tango has to do is use his X-ray vision to find out who has a gun. Then all he has to do is just grab it, since taking guns away from people is so easy.


  3. #33
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This conversation departed on a tangent when Scarecrow started arguing for the insanity of everyone on planes being armed to the teeth.



    Obviously hijackers can get into the cockpit with a little effort, or else hijacking wouldn't exist.

    I was refering to the guns being in a safe place when not needed.
    George W. Bush is a liberal.

  4. #34
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This conversation departed on a tangent when Scarecrow started arguing for the insanity of everyone on planes being armed to the teeth.
    No, teeth aren't very effective weapons in homo sapiens. I'd rather see them armed with guns, which is a perfectly sane idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Obviously hijackers can get into the cockpit with a little effort, or else hijacking wouldn't exist.
    Ummmm....and the last time a hijacker just strolled into the cockpit of an airline in flight is...

    ....is a long time ago....and those cockpits weren't locked and the flight crew didn't have a gun on their side of the locked door.

    Amazing how you can't seem to address those basic facts of the current real world the rest of us, but not you, live in.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    I'm unsure...my objective is always to find a happy medium between prohibitionists who advocate a total gun ban and extremists who claim that the solution to gun violence is more guns.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm unsure...my objective is always to find a happy medium between prohibitionists who advocate a total gun ban and extremists who claim that the solution to gun violence is more guns.
    Guns aren't violent. They're gadgets.

    People are violent.

    The solution to violent people with guns intent to do harm is people with guns willing to do harm to them to stop them.

    It's the only way that works.

    Unless you have a hand grenade.

    I do not recommend using grenades on airplanes in flight. Unlike guns, they may pack enough power to cause explosive decompression.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 03-19-09 at 09:46 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This conversation departed on a tangent when Scarecrow started arguing for the insanity of everyone on planes being armed to the teeth.
    Well, lets look at this rationally. What are the arguments for forbidding law-abiding citizens with CCW/CWP (concealed weapon permits) from carrying on an airplane?

    1. Depressurization/other functionality mishap.
    This has been proven to be effectively mythical, at least from the cause of handgun bullets. If you're worried about it anyway, we can require low-penetration frangible rounds.

    2. CCW gone crazy: the permit holder with the gun goes nuts. This is as much of a myth as depressurization due to handgun bullets. As mentioned before, crime statistics show that permit holders have such a low rate of violent crime it is virtually zero. In the unlikely chance that it did happen, an armed flight crew and maybe one or two other armed passengers would deal with it.

    Ah, but then again, you said
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    I'm not worried about the average citizen with guns breaking into full postal rage.
    ...so we won't worry about that one.

    3. Terrorist/etc grabs CCW's gun. Well as I mentioned earlier, concealed carry means hidden. Properly concealed, you'll sit next to a CCW for hours and never realize he is armed in most cases. Without X-ray vision, determining who is armed, if anyone, is iffy.
    Even if you did, taking a gun from an "educated CCW" is not at all like taking candy from a baby. Even if someone managed it, there would be the armed flight crew and perhaps other armed passengers to deal with. This is a non-issue.

    4.. Crowded conditions
    NOW, here is an intresting one. Yes, the conditions are crowded, and the risk to bystanders considerable.
    However, let's consider the circumstances under which a rational armed citizen might use that weapon... terrorists, violent looney with a razor slashing people, hijackers...well, then again it is hard to tell the latter pair from the first one since 911. In short, it would be a desperate situation where everyone's lives were already in danger. Consider Flight 93.
    The danger could be largely mitigated with good judgement and/or good marksmanship. I know plenty of CCW holders with both.

    Now, come to think of it, crowded conditions applies to a lot of places, like malls, stores, restaurants. Do you oppose CCW in such places? Since we've narrowed the reasons to oppose CCW on a plane down to this one issue, the crowded conditions, let's address that issue as it relates to malls, stores, restaurants, buses, etc.



    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-19-09 at 09:53 PM. Reason: sp.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Guns aren't violent. They're gadgets.

    People are violent.

    The solution to violent people with guns intent to do harm is people with guns willing to do harm to them to stop them.

    It's the only way that works.
    That analysis is overly crude, in my opinion. For instance, we can refer to Duggan's More Guns, More Crime to refer to the costs that may be imposed by a mere increase in gun ownership without considering the reality of an unregulated secondary market. As noted by the abstract:

    This paper examines the relationship between gun ownership and crime. Previous research has suffered from a lack of reliable data on gun ownership. I exploit a unique data set to reliably estimate annual rates of gun ownership at both the state and the county levels during the past two decades. My findings demonstrate that changes in gun ownership are significantly positively related to changes in the homicide rate, with this relationship driven almost entirely by an impact of gun ownership on murders in which a gun is used. The effect of gun ownership on all other crime categories is much less marked. Recent reductions in the fraction of households owning a gun can explain one‐third of the differential decline in gun homicides relative to nongun homicides since 1993.

  9. #39
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That analysis is overly crude, in my opinion. For instance, we can refer to Duggan's More Guns, More Crime to refer to the costs that may be imposed by a mere increase in gun ownership without considering the reality of an unregulated secondary market. As noted by the abstract:


    The guy must be cooking the books. You can prove anything if you make up your own data. Every publication I've seen for a decade says gun ownership is UP, and violent crime is DOWN.

    G.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Passengers aren't allowed to carry guns on the plane...why should the pilots be any different? They're trained to fly a plane, not kill hijackers.

    I don't see why it would be a good idea for ANYONE on a plane to have access to a gun. If someone wanted to hijack a plane, it seems like it would be considerably easier to steal the pilot's gun than to get through security with one.


    typical irrational hoplophobic response.


    If the pilot does not have a gun, we already know what happens.


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    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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