View Poll Results: Should Airline Pilots Have The Option to Arm Themselves?

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Thread: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

  1. #21
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    I think that they should, it should be required. They should learn to shoot and to kill with them too...

    I am not sure how they would get a gun away from the pilot Kandahar...
    threaten to kill a kid by crushing their throat or something?

    It is still better to have the kid die and shoolt the perp than to crash the plane...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Hijackers would have the advantages of surprise, a plan, and more experience with violence. The pilots would not.
    Pilots with a firearm in the cockpit, trained by the TSA, don't have a plan?

    What advantage of surprise? You mean the loud knock on the locked cockpit door? That surprise? Yeah, that'll rattle any experienced pilot trained to handle any imaginable in-flight catastrophe. You, it's frankly amazing what the parrots who've never been trained by the military or otherwise held any position of responsibilty will repeat.

    What your argument is clearly saying is that we need to surrender because there's no hope.

    Well, surrender already. But can you do it in a manner that doesn't obstruct the road?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So basically we'd go from a situation where no one can get a gun on a plane, to a situation where nearly everyone can get a gun on a plane. Which seems safer to you? Really?
    The latter. I trust my fellow citizens. The security precautions enforced by the govenment allowed the attacks on September 11th, 2001, attacks that could not have happened if other passengers had been armed as the Constitution permits them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The pilots and crew are responsible, respectively, for flying the plane and handing out the peanuts.
    The pilots are responsible for getting the airplane from Airport A to Airport B safely. If that means they have to shoot a terrorist to make that happen, then it's what they have to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What kind of reasonable training?
    Target practice.

    When not to shoot.

    When to shoot.

    Where to shoot.

    What the consequences of shooting are.

    What the consequences of not shooting are.

    How to be a man, not a liberal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Who is going to be flying the plane while the pilot and co-pilot are going Harrison Ford on the hijackers?
    Watch the movie Airplane. There are some informative scenes showing the proper operation of the Otto-Pilot when the pilots are incapacitated.

  3. #23
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have no problem with people owning guns.
    If that is so, your general attitude hides it well. You do not appear to have much faith in the ability of the armed citizen to accomplish anything but making a gun available to a criminal.


    I'm not worried about the average citizen with guns breaking into full postal rage. I'm worried that this would make it easier for terrorists to get guns onto planes as well, and/or steal them from someone who brought them on the plane legally.
    Ah, yes, because it is so easy to take someone's gun away from them, and because foreign nationals with green cards can get concealed carry permits so readily.... um, no I forgot, you have to be a citizen and have Federal background checks and fingerprints and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If there's a battle for the cockpit between a pilot with a gun and four hijackers without a gun, my money is on the hijackers.

    I think you severely overestimate the number of John Wayne wannabes on the average commercial flight. My money would still be on the hijackers winning that battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    There's that tendency I've noticed among most anti-gunners.

    There's this strange assumption that an armed citizen would be unable to do anything effective in a crisis, despite tons of evidence to the contrary.
    I rest my case, your Honor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    Hijackers would have the advantages of surprise, a plan, and more experience with violence. The pilots would not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Goshin
    As I recall, a lot of pilots are ex-military anyway
    .


    Irrelevant.
    Self-contradictory. Ex-military pilots would likely be just a tad more able to deal with violence than otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    I'm not worried about the average citizen with guns breaking into full postal rage. I'm worried that this would make it easier for terrorists to get guns onto planes as well, and/or steal them from someone who brought them on the plane legally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    And why couldn't a random law abiding citizen with a gun permit hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper?
    Self-contradiction.

    Your posts indicate a determined need to portray armed citizen pilots/crew on a plane as helpless patsies likely to inadvertenty aid the enemy by easily being disarmed, or otherwise ineffective, despite the fact that there is evidence in plenty of armed citizens effectively stopping violent crimes. This seems sufficiently irrational to cause me to doubt your statement that you have no problem with people owning guns.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-19-09 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Tact.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Picking his pocket? What are you talking about?
    Damn if I know. It's your scenario, this imaginary play where the terrorist gets the gun. You haven't written that scene yet, so you don't know how it's done, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Hijackers on four planes managed to bust into a locked cockpit without guns. It must not be that difficult.
    You mean the scenes where the big brave hero holds the razor blade to the lady's throat and KILLS HER LIKE THE INFIDEL PIG SHE IS? That'll shock the pilot ****less, I"m sure, but won't surprise them into the cockpit, not if he's got the gun.

    And....if the pilot doesn't have the gun and the get into the cockpit anyway....the outcome is better? You're writing the play here, how do things get better for passengers and crew if the cockpit is breached and the pilot doesn't have a gun?

    Oh, they don't get better, they wind up the same. Whereas a gun in the hands of the pilot can make the play end happily for the side you're opposed to, the passengers who aren't terrorists and the plane's crew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If there's a battle for the cockpit between a pilot with a gun and four hijackers without a gun, my money is on the hijackers.
    Yeah, while all that is going on, all the other passengers will be sitting around watching the in-flight movie and the rest of the flight crew will be smoking joints in the crew head.

    Let's...a single 9mm semi-automatic holds what, ten shots in the clip, or is it fourteen? What if the pilot chooses to use a .45, are his odds better? I'm not really familiar with details like that.... I don't know, in close quarters like that....hard to miss....of course you'd put money on the terrorists....after all, they can't crowd into the cockpit in a gang, they have to pass through that skinny door one at a time....makes it really really hard for the pilot to pick a target, right?

    But...if that's a problem, if the pistol isn't up to the task, I recommend the pilots get a pump-action shotgun with the barrel sawed off as short as possible, so they can't possibly miss. Then they're bound to get three, maybe four terrorists all at once.

    You have no experience shooting...not even on a video game, I bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When you care to address the arguments I actually made, instead of the arguments you wish I made, this conversation might be more interesting.

    He's got the gun.
    I have addressed them. You're assuming that by some magic the enemy can enter the stronghold without notice and get their hands on the gun. You can't provide any scenarios where the can happen, you can't present any scenarios in which the worst case outcome is made worse by the presence of the gun in the cockpit, and you can't address the fact that the gun in the cockpit can mitigate the hazards and thereby prevent the worst case scenarios from being realized.

    You can only hold to your religious devotion that guns are bad, and like all religious devotions, you can't answer the questions that challenge your emotional belief.

    You just hate guns with an irrational loathing.

    That should not be the basis for public policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think you severely overestimate the number of John Wayne wannabes on the average commercial flight. My money would still be on the hijackers winning that battle.
    Most people seeking to legally own a gun are aware of the nature of the tool they're buying and train themselves appropriately. No, I'm not overestimating anything. Real Americans on Flight 93 died re-taking that plane rather than allowing it to become a tool for the deaths of others, and they took action without firearms.

    It's not the gun that makes a man a hero, it's his decision to do what has to be done with what he has available to do it. Guns in the hands of the good guys makes their success more likely in combat situations.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    First off, to be a pilot and carry a sidearm, you must go to the air Marshal training center. After being trained, you are tested.

    Tests involve firearm safety, accuracy, shoot or no shoot tests, and live fire cockpit mock ups.

    I am against citizens being able to carry a firearm aboard a plane. Though i trust my fellow gun owners .. it would be two easy for a terrorist to fake some documentation in order to be permitted to carry one on board.

    I am completely for pilots being permitted to carry a weapon on board. It is the last line of defense.

    I wish all new planes built would have a much stronger cockpit door.

    Another way to solve the problem is to issue all passengers mini Louisville sluggers. So four throwbacks want to hijack a plane, you have 200+ passengers ready to beat them to death.

    In the past terrorists generally just took over the plane, asked for money or hostages to be released. 9/11 changed that.
    But in all reality, there will never be another hijack like 9/11, no passengers will allow them selves to be murdered like that again.
    George W. Bush is a liberal.

  6. #26
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Most people seeking to legally own a gun are aware of the nature of the tool they're buying and train themselves appropriately. No, I'm not overestimating anything. Real Americans on Flight 93 died re-taking that plane rather than allowing it to become a tool for the deaths of others, and they took action without firearms.

    It's not the gun that makes a man a hero, it's his decision to do what has to be done with what he has available to do it. Guns in the hands of the good guys makes their success more likely in combat situations.

    They did that, because they found out what happened to the other 2 planes.

    I do not intend to take any honor away from their actions.
    Last edited by bilbus; 03-19-09 at 08:52 PM.
    George W. Bush is a liberal.

  7. #27
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Most people seeking to legally own a gun are aware of the nature of the tool they're buying and train themselves appropriately. No, I'm not overestimating anything. Real Americans on Flight 93 died re-taking that plane rather than allowing it to become a tool for the deaths of others, and they took action without firearms.

    It's not the gun that makes a man a hero, it's his decision to do what has to be done with what he has available to do it. Guns in the hands of the good guys makes their success more likely in combat situations.

    +1. The latest tactical pistol class I took, the students numbered 2 current-serving LEO's, and 10 private citizens. I've been a cop, and am now a private citizen (with concealed carry permit), and frankly I have my doubts that Joe Average Cop is actually better trained than Joe Average Armed-Citizen. A CCW class doesn't teach much in the way of tactics, but plenty of CCW holders go on to take advanced training and practice regularly. I knew some fellow LEO's who never did any shooting except at the Academy and during annual re-qual.


    The Flight 93 folks were indeed heros; it's a pity none of them were properly armed, the outcome might have been very different.

  8. #28
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You just hate guns with an irrational loathing.
    Nope. I really don't care about guns that much. My main issues are economics, diplomacy, and civil rights. It's just fun to see you hicks get so worked up over such a trivial non-issue.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Most people seeking to legally own a gun are aware of the nature of the tool they're buying and train themselves appropriately. No, I'm not overestimating anything. Real Americans on Flight 93 died re-taking that plane rather than allowing it to become a tool for the deaths of others, and they took action without firearms.

    It's not the gun that makes a man a hero, it's his decision to do what has to be done with what he has available to do it. Guns in the hands of the good guys makes their success more likely in combat situations.
    And when Gomer Pyle brings his gun on the plane legally and Abdullah is sitting next to him, suddenly Abdullah has access to a gun...even if Abdullah could never get one on the plane himself.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And when Gomer Pyle brings his gun on the plane legally and Abdullah is sitting next to him, suddenly Abdullah has access to a gun...even if Abdullah could never get one on the plane himself.
    thats why pilots and marshals who are trained and tested should be the only ones to carry.

    Arent the pilot's gun locked up in the cockpit?
    George W. Bush is a liberal.

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