View Poll Results: Should Airline Pilots Have The Option to Arm Themselves?

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  • Yes. As a passenger I like getting to where I'm going.

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Thread: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

  1. #11
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Passengers aren't allowed to carry guns on the plane...why should the pilots be any different? They're trained to fly a plane, not kill hijackers.

    I don't see why it would be a good idea for ANYONE on a plane to have access to a gun. If someone wanted to hijack a plane, it seems like it would be considerably easier to steal the pilot's gun than to get through security with one.
    You mean outside of the minor fact that if only one person on two airplanes one sunny September morn had each been armed with a teenie-tiny .22 pistol, islamic thugs with razor blades would be dead, and not three thousand Americans?

    You don't see any benefit in that, huh?

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You mean outside of the minor fact that if only one person on two airplanes one sunny September morn had each been armed with a teenie-tiny .22 pistol, islamic thugs with razor blades would be dead, and not three thousand Americans?
    Unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    You don't see any benefit in that, huh?
    An exact repeat of the scenario is even less likely.


    I have a question: Do you think random people should be allowed to carry weapons on the plane (provided they have the training and licenses and whatnot)? If not, what makes a pilot so special? Are pilots law enforcement officers now?
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Unlikely.
    stupid comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    An exact repeat of the scenario is even less likely.
    The original scenario was unlikey.

    Best way to prevent a repeat is to restore the rights of citizenship to air passengers in the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have a question: Do you think random people should be allowed to carry weapons on the plane (provided they have the training and licenses and whatnot)? If not, what makes a pilot so special? Are pilots law enforcement officers now?
    You mean outside of the fact that if the pilot wants to crash the airplane into the Atlantic Ocean, as that Egypt Air flight did in 1999, no one's going to stop him....but if he's got a gun it's harder to make him do it?

    That kind of logic is a little advanced for some, isn't it?

    Why shouldn't random law abiding citizens who already have gun permits not be allowed to carry their weapons onto an airplane? No good reason is visible, only pants-wetting reasons.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You mean outside of the fact that if the pilot wants to crash the airplane into the Atlantic Ocean, as that Egypt Air flight did in 1999, no one's going to stop him....but if he's got a gun it's harder to make him do it?
    I'm not worried about the pilot using the gun. I'm worried about someone else getting ahold of it...as it's probably easier to do that than to sneak a gun through security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Why shouldn't random law abiding citizens who already have gun permits not be allowed to carry their weapons onto an airplane? No good reason is visible, only pants-wetting reasons.
    And why couldn't a random law abiding citizen with a gun permit hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper?
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Passengers aren't allowed to carry guns on the plane...why should the pilots be any different? They're trained to fly a plane, not kill hijackers.

    I don't see why it would be a good idea for ANYONE on a plane to have access to a gun. If someone wanted to hijack a plane, it seems like it would be considerably easier to steal the pilot's gun than to get through security with one.

    For the same reason that, once upon a time at least, the officers aboard a seagoing vessel were allowed access to arms: to keep order and prevent hijacking/etc.

    Incidentally, if it is so very easy to take someone's gun away from them as you make it sound, then the answer is simple: just take it back from them. After all, it's so easy to do that, right? (/irony)

    I'm not entirely sure that passengers with valid concealed-carry permits, and suitable ammunition shouldn't be allowed to carry aboard, but one argument for allowing the pilots/crew to be armed regardless is: they're responsible for the plane and passengers.

    After all, we entrust them with a multi-ton vehicle capable of flying at 500mph, filled with tons of highly-inflammable fuel, and dozens of passenger's lives... entrusting them with a pistol seems kind of minor in comparison, given a bit of reasonable training.

    As I recall, a lot of pilots are ex-military anyway.

    G.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not worried about the pilot using the gun. I'm worried about someone else getting ahold of it...as it's probably easier to do that than to sneak a gun through security.
    You mean bust into the locked cockpit without the pilot noticing it and picking his pocket unawares? Ya, that's certainly an incredibly plausible scenario.

    Oh, wait...why does the pilot have the gun in the cockpit again? To stop people from breaking in and hijacking the airplane....hmmmm....looks like the cap'n's got the "sneaking into the cockpit to grab the gun" scenario covered.

    He's got the gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And why couldn't a random law abiding citizen with a gun permit hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper?
    The other random citizens who have their own guns who want to get to where they paid to go.

    Well, some of us are rocket scientists, some of us are not.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Incidentally, if it is so very easy to take someone's gun away from them as you make it sound, then the answer is simple: just take it back from them. After all, it's so easy to do that, right? (/irony)
    Hijackers would have the advantages of surprise, a plan, and more experience with violence. The pilots would not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    I'm not entirely sure that passengers with valid concealed-carry permits, and suitable ammunition shouldn't be allowed to carry aboard,
    So basically we'd go from a situation where no one can get a gun on a plane, to a situation where nearly everyone can get a gun on a plane. Which seems safer to you? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    but one argument for allowing the pilots/crew to be armed regardless is: they're responsible for the plane and passengers.
    The pilots and crew are responsible, respectively, for flying the plane and handing out the peanuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    After all, we entrust them with a multi-ton vehicle capable of flying at 500mph, filled with tons of highly-inflammable fuel, and dozens of passenger's lives... entrusting them with a pistol seems kind of minor in comparison, given a bit of reasonable training.
    What kind of reasonable training? Who is going to be flying the plane while the pilot and co-pilot are going Harrison Ford on the hijackers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    As I recall, a lot of pilots are ex-military anyway.
    Irrelevant.
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not worried about the pilot using the gun. I'm worried about someone else getting ahold of it...as it's probably easier to do that than to sneak a gun through security.



    And why couldn't a random law abiding citizen with a gun permit hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper?

    There's that tendency I've noticed among most anti-gunners.

    There's this strange assumption that an armed citizen would be unable to do anything effective in a crisis, despite tons of evidence to the contrary.

    There's this further assumption that any armed citizen is likely to break out into full postal rage all the sudden and kill lots of people. Oddly enough, it is statistical fact that concealed-carry permit holders commit violent felonies so rarely that you might at well call the rate "zero".

    Depending on who you want to believe, the number of defensive uses of firearms range from 2.5 million a year (granted, that figure comes from pro-gun sources) to a minimum of about 60,000 a year (that is a figure from a gov't bureau), in which approximately 99% of cases no shots are fired: the perp flees or surrenders when confronted with a determined armed citizen - who, showing admirable restraint, does not fire on the aforementioned fleeing or surrendering perp.

    I have heard it speculated that the anti-gunner views armed citizens with suspicion and fear, because he is projecting his own fears of lack of self-control and ineffectiveness onto others. Seems reasonable.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-19-09 at 07:50 PM.

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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You mean bust into the locked cockpit without the pilot noticing it and picking his pocket unawares? Ya, that's certainly an incredibly plausible scenario.
    Picking his pocket? What are you talking about?

    Hijackers on four planes managed to bust into a locked cockpit without guns. It must not be that difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    Oh, wait...why does the pilot have the gun in the cockpit again? To stop people from breaking in and hijacking the airplane.
    If there's a battle for the cockpit between a pilot with a gun and four hijackers without a gun, my money is on the hijackers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    hmmmm....looks like the cap'n's got the "sneaking into the cockpit to grab the gun" scenario covered.
    When you care to address the arguments I actually made, instead of the arguments you wish I made, this conversation might be more interesting.

    He's got the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
    The other random citizens who have their own guns who want to get to where they paid to go.
    I think you severely overestimate the number of John Wayne wannabes on the average commercial flight. My money would still be on the hijackers winning that battle.
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    Re: Anti-Gun Extremists Seek to End Federal Flight Deck Officers Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    There's that tendency I've noticed among most anti-gunners.
    I have no problem with people owning guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    There's this strange assumption that an armed citizen would be unable to do anything effective in a crisis, despite tons of evidence to the contrary.

    There's this further assumption that any armed citizen is likely to break out into full postal rage all the sudden and kill lots of people. Oddly enough, it is statistical fact that concealed-carry permit holders commit violent felonies so rarely that you might at well call the rate "zero".
    I'm not worried about the average citizen with guns breaking into full postal rage. I'm worried that this would make it easier for terrorists to get guns onto planes as well, and/or steal them from someone who brought them on the plane legally.
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