View Poll Results: Should they?

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  • Of course, if they're receiving taxpayer money, Congress should decide what happens

    4 20.00%
  • Of course not, the fact that they receive taxpayer money doesn't give the goverment total control

    10 50.00%
  • Maybe, I don't really understand the analogy. Could you beat me over the head with it a bit more?

    4 20.00%
  • One time I was in the woods and a bear glared at me and I was scared but then I found 5 dollars

    5 25.00%
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Thread: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Can you link me to the part of the Constitution that is being violated.
    Article 1, Section 8, and the Tenth Amendment, to name two places. Taken together, they strictly forbid federal funding of eduation.

    Don't try to pretend that phrase "general welfare" means "blank check". It don't. Article 1 Section 8 detail what SPECIFIC powers the Congress has to promote the "general welfare". It does not list "education of the masses" as an option.

    The Tenth Amendment states that what isn't specifically granted to the Congress is reserved to the States. There's no exception listed in that amendment.

    President Jefferson in one of his State of the Union messages stated that since his opinion was that the interests of the nation would be best served if the government financed some form of minimum public education, it would be nice if the Congress would pass an Amendment to the Constitution permitting Congress to appropriate those funds for that purpose.

    Congress did not pass the Amendment, ever.

    Congress did not appropriate the funds at that time.

    Federal funding for education is a violation of the Constitution.

    Also, both Madison and Hamilton agree on one point, they who disagreed on many points....the purpose of specifically defining the powers of Congress in Article 1, Section 8 was to prevent the Congress from assuming other powers, and that it makes absolutely no sense to claim that any clause grants Congress unlimited power that would undermine and eliminate the specific enumeration of powers contained in Article 1, Section 8.

    Almost nothing the 21st Century US congress does is legal, because almost nothing they do is Constitutional. Almost everything they do is outside the scope allotted them by Article 1, Section 8.

  2. #32
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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Cookie Cutter Universities would be a horrible thing.
    I've got a lot of experience in that area, and cookie cutters are cute, but stupid. They can't learn a thing. They're set up to make hearts for example, and that's all they ever do until they break.

    The government shouldn't be in the cookie cutter business.

    Then again, it shouldn't be in the Financing Some Kid's Education Business, either.

    If the government wasn't interfering in the college financing scams, college wouldn't be so expensive, and maybe the myth that everyone has to have a college education to be happy would finally evaporate. I can't imagine why anyone things the Wal-Mart clerk with journalism degree is going to be any happier than the Wal-Mart clerk that hired in straight from high-school and didn't drag down those college loan payments. They're getting paid the same, aren't they?

    Here's an idea....make the kids going to college, and their families, accept the fact that it's their education (or their kids) and that it's therefore their RESPONSIBILITY to finance that education and to choose a major that's both productive and profitable.

    It's not the duty of the taxpayer who didn't spawn the kid to pay for the stranger's education. He's got his own life to live, let him live it his own way...without burdening him with a busload of miscellaneous crap that he had no part in.

    As was noted in Caddy Shack, it's fine for the young lad to aspire to his highest abilities....but if he can't afford to reach them, well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

    Then again...before the government got to interfering in college finances....students could figure out a way to work their way through college. And, well, let's face it, if they're not willing to work for it, why the hell should the government be wasting someone else's tax dollars on them?

    No...college today isn't about learning useful skills. It's not about becoming productive members of society. Be for real. The only reason kids go to college is Spring Break.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Article 1, Section 8, and the Tenth Amendment, to name two places. Taken together, they strictly forbid federal funding of eduation.

    Don't try to pretend that phrase "general welfare" means "blank check". It don't. Article 1 Section 8 detail what SPECIFIC powers the Congress has to promote the "general welfare". It does not list "education of the masses" as an option.

    The Tenth Amendment states that what isn't specifically granted to the Congress is reserved to the States. There's no exception listed in that amendment.
    This has been argued to death in about 50 other threads on here. Feel free to search for those if you want a more detailed response, but for now, I'll just say that Hamilton's view was endorsed by the SC in US v. Butler, and there's no going back.

    President Jefferson in one of his State of the Union messages stated that since his opinion was that the interests of the nation would be best served if the government financed some form of minimum public education, it would be nice if the Congress would pass an Amendment to the Constitution permitting Congress to appropriate those funds for that purpose.
    Link?

    Also, both Madison and Hamilton agree on one point, they who disagreed on many points....the purpose of specifically defining the powers of Congress in Article 1, Section 8 was to prevent the Congress from assuming other powers, and that it makes absolutely no sense to claim that any clause grants Congress unlimited power that would undermine and eliminate the specific enumeration of powers contained in Article 1, Section 8.
    Nobody claimed that the power was unlimited, that's a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If the government wasn't interfering in the college financing scams, college wouldn't be so expensive
    There's some truth to this.

    Here's an idea....make the kids going to college, and their families, accept the fact that it's their education (or their kids) and that it's therefore their RESPONSIBILITY to finance that education and to choose a major that's both productive and profitable.
    FWIW, the taxpayer isn't doing much to finance most educations. At most, they're subsidizing stafford loans to the tune of a few percent. I doubt that without that, kids would drop out or choose different majors.

    It's not the duty of the taxpayer who didn't spawn the kid to pay for the stranger's education. He's got his own life to live, let him live it his own way...without burdening him with a busload of miscellaneous crap that he had no part in.
    But you have no problem with the states imposing school taxes to pay for state-run public schools?

    As was noted in Caddy Shack, it's fine for the young lad to aspire to his highest abilities....but if he can't afford to reach them, well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.
    I have to give you props for citing Caddyshack.

    Then again...before the government got to interfering in college finances....students could figure out a way to work their way through college. And, well, let's face it, if they're not willing to work for it, why the hell should the government be wasting someone else's tax dollars on them?
    Students back in the day could "figure it out" because their total educational debt was probably $10k, not $200k.

    No...college today isn't about learning useful skills. It's not about becoming productive members of society. Be for real. The only reason kids go to college is Spring Break.
    For some.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #34
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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This has been argued to death in about 50 other threads on here. Feel free to search for those if you want a more detailed response, but for now, I'll just say that Hamilton's view was endorsed by the SC in US v. Butler, and there's no going back.
    Yeah, the USSC has never made a mistake, not once in it's history.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Link?
    Google

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Nobody claimed that the power was unlimited, that's a strawman.
    No.

    There are currently NO limits on congressional action. That "strawman" has a chainsaw and is chasing you down the road. Ain't no Ray Bolger in that suit, it's real.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    There's some truth to this.
    Of course.

    I wrote it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    FWIW, the taxpayer isn't doing much to finance most educations. At most, they're subsidizing stafford loans to the tune of a few percent. I doubt that without that, kids would drop out or choose different majors.
    Yeah, no one uses Pell Grants. No one takes up the burden of paying back those loans when the student refuses to. It's just free money, is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But you have no problem with the states imposing school taxes to pay for state-run public schools?
    Not relevant to the discussion of what's constitutional or not.

    Read the thread title.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I have to give you props for citing Caddyshack.
    One should study the classics.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Students back in the day could "figure it out" because their total educational debt was probably $10k, not $200k.
    And....it's 200K because the Federal government interfered in the tuition market. I mean, if the college you want to go to knows your rich uncle is going to pay the balance of what you can afford and what they demand in tuition....gee golly...look at those tuitions take the express elevator to the penthouse.

    When I was going to college the inflation rate had been tamed by Reagan to be roughly 3-4% per year. College tuition fees were growing three times that, and they've outpaced the national inflation rate every single year since.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    For some.
    For enough, considering they're consuming taxpayer dollars.

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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yeah, the USSC has never made a mistake, not once in it's history.
    Did I say they didn't?

    Oh, so you're just trolling. Great.

    There are currently NO limits on congressional action.
    Yes there are.

    That "strawman" has a chainsaw and is chasing you down the road. Ain't no Ray Bolger in that suit, it's real.
    Right.

    Yeah, no one uses Pell Grants. No one takes up the burden of paying back those loans when the student refuses to. It's just free money, is all.
    Considering that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy, there's not much risk involved.

    Not relevant to the discussion of what's constitutional or not.

    Read the thread title.
    Oh my bad, I didn't know you were so concerned with staying on topic, what with your rant about KIDS TODAY ALWAYS PLAYING THE VIDDYA GAMES AND WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN LOW AND JUST PARTYING WHAT A WORTHLESS GENERATION RAHHHHHH.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Should the federal government get to decide how universities are run?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Did I say they didn't?
    You didn't say they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Oh, so you're just trolling. Great.
    No. I'm telling the student to do his own work.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Yes there are.
    Oh, right. I forgot. The USSC said Congress can't put limits on abortion.

    But...the Congress is forbidden by the Constitution from spending money on education....a big line item in the modern federal outlay.

    Congress is forbidden from bailing out failed companies...and I don't need to say more about that, do I?

    Congress is forbidden from running a retirement ponzi scheme...but I'm still robbed for socialist security taxes anyway. So are you.

    No, there's no effective limits on anything Congress wants to do now.

    You can pretend there are. You can make yourself feel good believing it, but when they want to interfere in something new, they're going to do it. Our great grandparents, the Greedist Generation that lived during the Depression, they took the hobbles off the crazy horse and he wasn't too dangerous then, but he's running wild now.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Considering that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy, there's not much risk involved.
    Yeah. No risk. The borrower just stops paying. Why bother, when the useless degree he took the loan out for got him that wonder-job at Wal-mart?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Oh my bad, I didn't know you were so concerned with staying on topic, what with your rant about KIDS TODAY ALWAYS PLAYING THE VIDDYA GAMES AND WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN LOW AND JUST PARTYING WHAT A WORTHLESS GENERATION RAHHHHHH.
    You got a little cross-talk there, bud, put down your Wii remote and focus.

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