View Poll Results: What do you think of this Universal Health Care plan?

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  • I would vote for it, as is, if I was in Congress

    1 3.70%
  • I oppose almost everything in it

    21 77.78%
  • It needs some changes in certain areas (specify)

    5 18.52%
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Thread: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

  1. #21
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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Breaking the tie between employment and insurance isn't going to bring costs down for individual plans. The price for an individual plan is not tied to the price of group health insurance. The price of the individual plan is the market price. The employer tie to health insurance does keep cost down for the employed individual, usually because the employer is paying part of the premium. If you added together the employer contribution and the individual contribution and compared it against an individual plan, the difference between a group plan and individual plan is not all that great. Especially for smaller businesses.
    This is not true. There are better more affordable plans with cheaper premiums and deductibles offered to larger companies vs smaller ones. Small businesses with 3-5 employees are royally screwed. It makes sense. In most cases if you are buying 2000 of something vs 10 of something it's almost always cheaper to buy in bulk, no matter what the product. I get that. However that shouldn't apply to health insurance. There should be no such thing as "group" insurance. All individuals should be able to buy their own plans at a fair price. Tim shouldn't be paying 3X the cost for his employees because he only has 4 employees compared to other companies that have 350 employees. Get rid of all that nonsense. Break the tie between employer/employee/health insurance and the plans offered will be more fairly competitive and accessible for everyone.

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    This is not true. There are better more affordable plans with cheaper premiums and deductibles offered to larger companies vs smaller ones. Small businesses with 3-5 employees are royally screwed. It makes sense. In most cases if you are buying 2000 of something vs 10 of something it's almost always cheaper to buy in bulk, no matter what the product. I get that. However that shouldn't apply to health insurance. There should be no such thing as "group" insurance. All individuals should be able to buy their own plans at a fair price. Tim shouldn't be paying 3X the cost for his employees because he only has 4 employees compared to other companies that have 350 employees. Get rid of all that nonsense. Break the tie between employer/employee/health insurance and the plans offered will be more fairly competitive and accessible for everyone.
    I don't think you understand what I was saying. The reason that large group plans are cheaper for the individuals participating in them, is because the employer pays a significantly larger portion of the "other" part of the premium, meaning their contribution to the health insurance is usually greater than what a small business could afford to do. Is there a difference in overall pricing as a group gets larger? Sure, but its really not that significant.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I don't think you understand what I was saying. The reason that large group plans are cheaper for the individuals participating in them, is because the employer pays a significantly larger portion of the "other" part of the premium, meaning their contribution to the health insurance is usually greater than what a small business could afford to do. Is there a difference in overall pricing as a group gets larger? Sure, but its really not that significant.
    You're wrong. I know. My husband owns a small company. Most insurance companies offer plans based on how many employees are going to be covered. The fewer the employees the more ridiculous the plan prices.

    It is very significant.

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    You're wrong. I know. My husband owns a small company. Most insurance companies offer plans based on how many employees are going to be covered. The fewer the employees the more ridiculous the plan prices.

    It is very significant.
    I'm right, I worked in insurance.

    The prices for large groups are ridiculous as well. They can afford it.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    No retards I AM RIGHT

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    The cost of insurance has risen for everyone. The prices may be ridiculous for everyone.

    But they are much more ridiculous, significantly so, for small business. Nothing you say will get me believing any different as I personally have the responsibility with dealing with this stuff.

    Insurance premiums for small businesses are 18 percent greater than those paid by large companies.
    Why Costs Are Higher for Small Businesses. Costs are higher for small-group insurance because states require small-group health policies to cover certain conditions, treatments and providers. Large employers often self-insure. Their plans are governed by federal law rather than state regulations, and federal government mandates fewer benefits. Small group premiums vary widely by state, and the highest premiums are in the most heavily regulated states [see the figure].
    Small Business Health Insurance - Brief Analysis #642

    Small businesses often pay more for employee health benefits because they don't have the buying power of big employers. As both workers and small employers feel the financial squeeze, fewer are able to afford to offer, or purchase, health insurance coverage.
    States and Small Business Health Insurance, 2009

    "For our very small businesses, it's probably the most challenging circumstance under which people buy insurance," says Kim Holland, an executive committee member of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners and state insurance commissioner for Oklahoma.

    In fact, most of the nation's uninsured are small-business employees or their families, Holland says.

    While 99 percent of large companies offer health benefits, the number falls to 49 percent for companies with three to nine employees, according to a 2008 survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust.

    That's no surprise when you look at the numbers. According to the National Federation of Independent Business, health premiums for small business plans have doubled in the last eight years. And for smaller companies, those dollars comprise a larger share of their revenues. On top of that, small businesses pay an average of 20 percent more for their health insurance, says Amanda Austin, senior manager of legislative affairs with the NFIB.
    Finding small business health insurance

    I could find tons more articles. Not anywhere was I able to find any article stating that costs for small business and large ones are the same. Not one. Nor, could I find anything saying the disparity was insignificant. There may be some variation in how severe the problem is state to state as some states are working hard to find solutions however it is a nation wide problem from cost to cost for small businesses.

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The cost of insurance has risen for everyone. The prices may be ridiculous for everyone.

    But they are much more ridiculous, significantly so, for small business. Nothing you say will get me believing any different as I personally have the responsibility with dealing with this stuff.





    Small Business Health*Insurance - Brief Analysis #642



    States and Small Business Health Insurance, 2009



    Finding small business health insurance

    I could find tons more articles. Not anywhere was I able to find any article stating that costs for small business and large ones are the same. Not one. Nor, could I find anything saying the disparity was insignificant. There may be some variation in how severe the problem is state to state as some states are working hard to find solutions however it is a nation wide problem from cost to cost for small businesses.
    Of course they aren't the same. Thats not what I said.

    If we are looking at reforming healthcare, trying to abandon group health insurance for a single payor system isn't going to benefit anybody, or bring costs down. This is about market prices for health care becoming a burden. You know who has even less purchasing power than small businesses? Individual families. And they don't get to split the cost with somebody else. So if we went to a single payor system like you advise, then alot more people would be unable to afford health insurance. Your own link provides part of the problem as well, when it mentioned the state regulations for group insurance vs. large corps that self insure( and self insure isn't technically insurance anyway, there is no transfer of risk ). We have to look at the rules and laws of how the health insurance market is regulated, vs. blaming group insurance policies for making it harder on small businesses. Its not the insurers fault, they are required by law to provide more services(meaning a rise in premium). Its the state fault. And this is also a prime reason this needs to be a state issue, more than a federal one. If we have overregulation in one state, it sucks for those people, but others remain untouched. If the federal government overregulates, it costs everbody extra.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    I think we'd be far better off if the tie between employee/employer paid health care was broken for good. Then individuals, families, EVERYONE, would be able to buy their own insurance at a fair market value. The way things are now some folks are basically hostages to their employer for fear of changing anything that might cost them their insurance. There's really no good reason to have your medical coverage tied to your place of work. Especially in a scenario such as the one Kandahar has put forth where the government is offering a plan. Unfortunately his Green Plan sucks Donkey dick as a "basic" plan for the poor. High deductible plans are only of use when you have money, are capable of saving money, and are disciplined about putting funds in your HSA. Such a plan would never be workable for poor people.

  9. #29
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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I think we'd be far better off if the tie between employee/employer paid health care was broken for good. Then individuals, families, EVERYONE, would be able to buy their own insurance at a fair market value. The way things are now some folks are basically hostages to their employer for fear of changing anything that might cost them their insurance. There's really no good reason to have your medical coverage tied to your place of work. Especially in a scenario such as the one Kandahar has put forth where the government is offering a plan. Unfortunately his Green Plan sucks Donkey dick as a "basic" plan for the poor. High deductible plans are only of use when you have money, are capable of saving money, and are disciplined about putting funds in your HSA. Such a plan would never be workable for poor people.
    I think you are underestimating just what the fair market cost of individual health care plans would be, if we abolished the group health plans. You think it would lower costs, I think it would at best, keep them where they are(for individual plans, which are too expensive anyway) but realistically would drive the prices up.

    I am thinking of offering up a counter proposal to Kandahars at some point. I like some of his ideas, just not all of it.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Kandahar's Universal Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I think you are underestimating just what the fair market cost of individual health care plans would be, if we abolished the group health plans. You think it would lower costs, I think it would at best, keep them where they are(for individual plans, which are too expensive anyway) but realistically would drive the prices up.

    I am thinking of offering up a counter proposal to Kandahars at some point. I like some of his ideas, just not all of it.
    Well the one thing you have to remember is these large corporate plans for massive groups of employees turn around and wheel and deal with drs. They come to agreements on what they will pay for a particular procedure code. Drs. are often suckered into accepting these agreements because so many people are employed by the large corporation in a given area that to turn down the agreement would cost them a large percentage of their patient base.

    So a drs. fee for a service might be $150. An employee of a large corporation might have an insurance with whom the dr. has agreed to accept $60 for the service. The employee has a $5 copay. So the dr. bills $150. The ins. company agrees to their contractual agreement of $60. Then they send a check for $55 and the patient pays $5.

    Some poor slob with a high ridiculous deductible and an insurance plan that didn't have the same "power" in reaching contractual agreements as the one above walks into the dr and gets charged $150. His plan maybe has worked out an agreement with the docs that they pay $110. He hasn't met his deductible yet so he pays $110.

    Then the really poor slob who has no insurance but isn't poor walks in to the drs. office and that asshole pays the entire $150. Eventually when the dr. decides he isn't making enough he will up that procedure code to $200. Person A & B above pay the same as the dr. is stuck in a contractual agreement with their insurance providers. The no insurance guy now pays $200 to make up for the cost of the many guys who now only pay $60.

    All that riot needs to be done away with.
    Last edited by talloulou; 03-17-09 at 02:47 PM.

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