View Poll Results: Should civil unions replace marriage for legal purposes?

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  • The term civil union should replace the term marriage for legal purposes

    15 22.73%
  • Both terms, civil union (for gay couples)and marriage (for straight), should be used

    25 37.88%
  • The term marriage should be use equally for gay and straight couples

    21 31.82%
  • Gay couples should not be able to have the rights of marriage at all.

    5 7.58%
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Thread: Civil Unions

  1. #71
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    heterosexual individuals and homosexual individuals are subject to the same restrictions when applying for a marriage license from the state, simply because the state has no way of knowing if individuals are heterosexual or homosexual. that being said, the average heterosexual individual is probably slightly more likely to find the prospect of joining themselves permanently to a member of the opposite sex appealing or tolerable, but nowhere is any individual guaranteed the right to marry the person they would most like to marry. to suggest anything of the kind is illogical. if that's not what you meant, consider that being more accurate in the future will stop semantic arguments before they start.
    Semantics is just a persons way to try and get out of answering honestly. Everyone here knows what is being asked. Knows what it entails. You should not have to be a lawyer in order to have a good debate.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  2. #72
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Semantics is just a persons way to try and get out of answering honestly. Everyone here knows what is being asked. Knows what it entails. You should not have to be a lawyer in order to have a good debate.
    people use semantics to point out flaws in your argument. if that bothers you, fix the flaws and they won't be able to do that anymore. if you can't come up with a way to word your argument without seeing those same flaws, there might be a reason why.

  3. #73
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Really? Show me one heterosexual that wants to marry the same sex.
    Show me one person whose qualifications for marriage only include that their spouse be a member of the appropriate sex. As a matter of fact... why don't you go ahead and show me a person who, having a person they desire to marry, is willing to substitute their intended spouse for any other person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Show me one heterosexual that does not get to marry who they want period. Or are you being so literal that you're going to try and pull the old "don't get to marry someone if they say no" bit?
    I might be more tempted to take you seriously if you didn't announce in advance that you're going to counter any argument I make with "you're being too literal!"-- or, in other words, that it's not fair to argue against what you're saying because what you say is not what you mean.

    But, for starters... heterosexuals in the majority of States are not legally permitted to marry their first cousins, nor their second cousins in some States. Regardless of their sex or their consent. And if you're going to continue to argue that "heterosexuals get to marry the person they want", you're going to have to explain why the State has the legal and moral privilege of excluding those marriages from consideration.

    Or admit that heterosexuals really only have the "right" to get married if the State approves of their coupling-- which is the same state of affairs which governs homosexuals, and what we are really arguing about is whether or not the State should approve of homosexual marriages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Let's not play semantics here. You know darn well what I mean. And what everyone else means by "want to marry who they want to".
    Yes. I know exactly what you mean. The problem with this argument is that you do not seem to know what you mean-- because you are saying one thing, claiming to mean another, and then are attempting to use both statements to justify your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Edit: Actually lets put it this way. Are you married Korimyr? If so did you want to marry that person?
    I'm not married. Thankfully, the person I want to marry fits the legal criteria for whom I am allowed to marry.

    edit: And you are still neglecting the point entirely that you are acting under the unproven moral assumption that the answer to your third question-- "Are they the same?"-- should be "yes", without taking a single step to attempt to prove it. Which, considering that I support gay marriage, is the point that drew me into this conversation in the first place.

    You cannot solve this, or any other moral dilemma, on the basis of pure reason. Logic cannot answer this question unless you have already answered it for yourself-- on the basis of your own arbitrary moral principles.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 03-08-09 at 05:10 AM.

  4. #74
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    people use semantics to point out flaws in your argument. if that bothers you, fix the flaws and they won't be able to do that anymore. if you can't come up with a way to word your argument without seeing those same flaws, there might be a reason why.
    Can you honestly tell me that people JUST use semantics to point out flaws? Or do you also know that they use semantics to try and get out of an uncomfortable positition by sidetracking a person into discussing semantical nonsense?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  5. #75
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Can you honestly tell me that people JUST use semantics to point out flaws? Or do you also know that they use semantics to try and get out of an uncomfortable positition by sidetracking a person into discussing semantical nonsense?
    I can honestly tell you that in this case, your words are flat-out wrong. you are making a statement that is simply untrue, and then you say "You knew what I meant!" but if you fix the statement to make it true, you can win this argument without the distractions. please, just fix it so we can move on.

    or...maybe you can't fix it, because your argument is based on a misconception.

    dunno.

  6. #76
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    Re: Civil Unions

    The people should be free to live with whomever they choose, and should be free to get married (contact) with whomever they choose. The problem is separating the religious idea of marriage and the legal construct of marriage. Your church can define marriage and prohibit types of marriages performed but, cannot interfere with the legal construct of marriage in a free society. In the legal construct, everyone is free to marriage whomever they want and have that marriage supported by legal means, like hospital visits and medical decisions. Of course, I would like to have government get out of marriage and only enforce civil contracts. If you support liberty, then you must support liberty for all, not just liberty for yourself.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    The people should be free to live with whomever they choose, and should be free to get married (contact) with whomever they choose.
    Problem is, marriage is not just between two people, but between those two people and society. There are thousands of laws which pertain to marriage, which is in essence a contract not between two people, but between two people and the State.

    I am a firm proponent of this view. Marriage is not a contract, it is an institution, and every other institution of society should act to uphold it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    If you support liberty, then you must support liberty for all, not just liberty for yourself.
    Liberty, like morality, is in the eye of the beholder.

  8. #78
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post


    But hey lets get past this. You do know that people can get married without ever ONCE visiting anyone thats religious? Without even having a ceremony? And it's been that way for a LONG time. Lets see if you know what it is....
    Yes they can, so what?. This makes marriage in the history of the US, no less a religious institution? No, not by a long shot.

    So your comment has nothing to do with my argument or any claim I made.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-08-09 at 09:51 AM.


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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It only endangers your right to have the government recognize it. It will not and cannot endanger your right to actually marry.
    This thread and the related OP are talking about the state issued license and nothing else. If you are talking about marriage as anything other than the state issued license, you are off point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Who do you want to marry Jerry? A woman? Or a man? Please don't sidestep this question. There are only two possible choices. There are no "what if's", there are no "but's". Nothing but "man" or "woman". Next question. If you were only allowed to marry men would you object to it? Yes or no.
    I don't want to mary anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Heterosexuals get to marry who they want. Homosexuals do not. That is not equality.
    My sister and I are both heterosexual, we do in fact live together and actually raise children together.

    Yet we can't marry.

    Clearly, therefore, sexual orientation is not a criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wrong. It has every thing to do with equality and rights. You just don't want to see the inequality that is there.
    Saying "nu uuh" is hardly a counter argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Look back through the thread. Religion has been mentioned quite a few times.
    Not by me, and I only answer for my own posts.

    People who make religious arguments are actually trying to make sociological arguments but lack the knowledge and skill to properly articulate what they're trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It's not a red herring. It's fact. It's truth. Its right. And if you had correctly red what I said you would know that it does nothing to destroy gay marriage arguement. If anything your response shows that it strengthens it.
    Read the OP and get back to me.

    ======
    You bring nothing, Kal. Where's Gallenrox?

  10. #80
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Have gays been allowed to be married and share in the same benefits as heterosexual couples?
    YES!

    And Prop8 did not change this.

    Gays in CA can currently today choose someone of the SAME GENDER and have free, complete and total access to each and every single civil right, without any exception at all whatsoever, that their hetero counterparts have.

    Next-of Kin, hospital visitation, insurance, you name it. Gays have it all right now.

    Gays will gain nothing with the abolishment of "marriage". Nothing. They already have the complete collection of civil rights.

    So, why do they want to abolish my marriage? How does my marriage affect them in any way?

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