View Poll Results: Should civil unions replace marriage for legal purposes?

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  • The term civil union should replace the term marriage for legal purposes

    15 22.73%
  • Both terms, civil union (for gay couples)and marriage (for straight), should be used

    25 37.88%
  • The term marriage should be use equally for gay and straight couples

    21 31.82%
  • Gay couples should not be able to have the rights of marriage at all.

    5 7.58%
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Thread: Civil Unions

  1. #251
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If one gender is being discriminated against, then what is your point about "two genders"?
    for this argument's sake, and for clarity, Discrimination with a big D is the bad kind, the racist, sexist, evil bigoted kind.
    discrimination with a little d just means selective judgment based on relevant characteristics. denying loans to people with bad credit is discrimination.

    automatically assuming Discrimination is taking place is impetuous. when someone makes that call, I immediately want to know what the Discrimination is based on. race? gender? orientation?

    one gender is not being discriminated against in the issue of gay marriage. if both genders--and thus all genders--are subject to the same rules, any discrimination taking place cannot logically be based on gender.

    men and women are not allowed to share bathrooms, but their bathrooms are equally operative, the same size with the same cleaning staff. is this a case of "separate but equal" terrible Discrimination? which gender is being treated unfairly? it is functional discrimination with a little d.

    a hateful mexican who will not allow nonmexicans in his restaurant is not racist if he won't allow mexicans either. he's just a jerk and a poor businessman.

    I'm trying to find a post that states my entire argument. maybe I will post a PM I sent to YamiB.

  2. #252
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by DGomez View Post
    Marriage was an institution established for business purposes. It was a way to grant sexual rights to ensure legitimate heirs, a way to increase wealth by combining property, and a simple way to establish who inherits what.
    Then we'd better stop those people who are infertile, those people who don't want children or those people too old to have children from getting married because they cannot fulfill the first part of your claim. As for the others, that can be fulfilled by homosexual couples as well.

    Try again.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #253
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    for this argument's sake, and for clarity, Discrimination with a big D is the bad kind, the racist, sexist, evil bigoted kind.
    discrimination with a little d just means selective judgment based on relevant characteristics. denying loans to people with bad credit is discrimination.

    automatically assuming Discrimination is taking place is impetuous. when someone makes that call, I immediately want to know what the Discrimination is based on. race? gender? orientation?

    one gender is not being discriminated against in the issue of gay marriage. if both genders--and thus all genders--are subject to the same rules, any discrimination taking place cannot logically be based on gender.

    men and women are not allowed to share bathrooms, but their bathrooms are equally operative, the same size with the same cleaning staff. is this a case of "separate but equal" terrible Discrimination? which gender is being treated unfairly? it is functional discrimination with a little d.

    a hateful mexican who will not allow nonmexicans in his restaurant is not racist if he won't allow mexicans either. he's just a jerk and a poor businessman.

    I'm trying to find a post that states my entire argument. maybe I will post a PM I sent to YamiB.
    Would you consider the banning of interracial marriage to be Discrimination or discrimination?

    Obviously the laws being passed are targeted at homosexuals a good comparison would be poll taxes and literacy tests for voting in history. These laws were targeted at preventing people from voting due to their race although the criteria used was not directly their race.
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  4. #254
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Would you consider the banning of interracial marriage to be Discrimination or discrimination?
    not really either. more just racism. and I think there was racism on all sides, not just white on black. minorities are often really, really racist. the white people making those laws were racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Obviously the laws being passed are targeted at homosexuals a good comparison would be poll taxes and literacy tests for voting in history. These laws were targeted at preventing people from voting due to their race although the criteria used was not directly their race.
    I think this is a pretty good point but when I break it down and think it over I don't actually agree with much if any of your reasoning.

    "Obviously the laws being passed are targeted at homosexuals"--this is discrimination whereby the individual state chooses not to grant marriage as it exists for heterosexual couples to homosexual couples. the way I see it the state has every right to calculate or predict the ROI and decide if it is more appropriate to grant marriages, civil unions or nothing to to these couples, since state sponsored marriage is certainly an investment on the state's part. I have seen no fundamental right to state sponsored marriage that would preclude the state exercising this selective judgment. yes though, the most recent scramble to define marriage more specifically is to prevent homosexual couples from marrying. yes, a lot of the people responsible for this probably oppose the practice of homosexuality on religious grounds, or are bigots.

    "a good comparison would be poll taxes and literacy tests for voting in history"--let's not get into how I feel about illiterate people voting, and instead use the poll tax example. poll taxes, as far as I know, were put in place to prevent poor people from voting in areas where most poor people were black. black people were given the vote with the ratification of the 13th-15th amendments. imposing a poll tax to keep them and only them from voting is in direct violation of the constitution in many ways.

    "These laws were targeted at preventing people from voting due to their race although the criteria used was not directly their race."--by which you mean that homosexuals couples are barred from marriage although state governments do not use the individuals' orientations alone to exclude them. that in and of itself is true. I don't see a direct violation of the constitution in this case because I don't see where homosexuals are guaranteed the right to enter into homosexual marriage. they are not excluded from heterosexual marriage. I realize that will not typically be appealing to them because of their orientation towards members of their own sexes, but the rights are the same in any case. nowhere do I think is there a clause obligating the government to provide any kind of contract two people may wish to enter into. if the government is inclined to offer a contract, it should offer it to any legal adult (with certain commonsense exceptions) but it is NOT compelled to alter that contract to accommodate every citizen's specific needs or wants. I see it as more of a take-it-or-leave-it.

    I do understand YamiB. in response to an earlier argument you made that benefits afforded by state sponsored marriage are not limited to childbearing or rearing, and that homosexual couples want things like hospital visitation etc. I can perfectly understand where they're coming from and I agree that these legal issues need to be addressed, whether by entities like hospitals etc or by the government, but I don't think the automatic answer is to give homosexuals marriages designed for heterosexual couples.

  5. #255
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Bodhisattva, I hope my above post is something you can work with. also I'd like to point out that before you thanked my other post I had 317 thanks on St. Patrick's Day.

  6. #256
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Then we'd better stop those people who are infertile, those people who don't want children or those people too old to have children from getting married because they cannot fulfill the first part of your claim. As for the others, that can be fulfilled by homosexual couples as well.

    Try again.
    You are referring to the exceptions. Laws are made with the general public in mind.

    A fertile heterosexual coupling can result in natural children.

    A fertile homosexual coupling can never result in natural children.

    The laws were made to cover the resulting offspring of the heterosexual couple. Homosexuals are already free to adopt. In adopting a child you sign papers saying that you are willing and able to take care of the kid. Natural born children are born with no such paperwork; thus, the laws to grant them rights.

  7. #257
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by DGomez View Post
    You are referring to the exceptions. Laws are made with the general public in mind.

    A fertile heterosexual coupling can result in natural children.

    A fertile homosexual coupling can never result in natural children.

    The laws were made to cover the resulting offspring of the heterosexual couple. Homosexuals are already free to adopt. In adopting a child you sign papers saying that you are willing and able to take care of the kid. Natural born children are born with no such paperwork; thus, the laws to grant them rights.
    for a second I thought you were Jerry.

    but only for a second. that first sentence...

    (you're pro-gm, remember?)

  8. #258
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by DGomez View Post
    You are referring to the exceptions. Laws are made with the general public in mind.

    A fertile heterosexual coupling can result in natural children.
    Yet we allow infertile heterosexual couples to get married, couplings which cannot EVER result in natural children. We allow women past the age of menopause to get married even though they can never produce natural children. Come on, you're not even trying.

    A fertile homosexual coupling can never result in natural children.
    Nor can many other heterosexual couplings, as I've already pointed out, yet they can get married without any problems. In fact, I'm unaware of a single marriage license issued on the basis of the ability to breed.

    The laws were made to cover the resulting offspring of the heterosexual couple. Homosexuals are already free to adopt. In adopting a child you sign papers saying that you are willing and able to take care of the kid. Natural born children are born with no such paperwork; thus, the laws to grant them rights.
    Actually, most states restrict the ability of homosexuals to adopt at all.

    Come on, you're not making any sense at all.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #259
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Then we'd better stop those people who are infertile, those people who don't want children or those people too old to have children from getting married because they cannot fulfill the first part of your claim.
    Link to your bill, please.

    I will likely support it.

  10. #260
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    (you're pro-gm, remember?)
    Since when?

    I honestly don't really care one one way or the other about gay marriage. I just like debating it.
    Last edited by DGomez; 03-18-09 at 04:13 AM.

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