View Poll Results: Founding Fathers. Terrorists?

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  • Yes. Terrorists.

    4 21.05%
  • Nope. Heros.

    14 73.68%
  • The definition of terrorist must be too broad.

    3 15.79%
  • We must make more of certian elements considered terrorism.

    1 5.26%
  • We must fund more of classes like these.

    1 5.26%
  • Why are taxpayers funding this?

    7 36.84%
  • I like pork but not pork biproducts.

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

  1. #51
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    The founding fathers were not terrorists in any sense of the word. A terrorist is always a rebel, but a rebel is not always a terrorist.

    They tried reasoning diplomatically first. When that failed they went through the process of declaring Independence and finally war. Not killing civilians to further there agenda, but legitimately declared war.

    I think the class is a good thing but the teacher is a moron who understands little about the founding fathers, and the motivation behind the actions they took.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-02-09 at 04:57 PM.


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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    He was totally a terrorist. He had an anti government agenda, an intent to wreak havoc and cause fear, and he was a depressed loser that had trouble getting laid. He couldn't more obviously fit the profile of a terrorist if he tried.
    Anti-government doesn't make you a terrorist. His motivation was revenge on the government and some delusions of grandeur of starting a revolution. That doesn't make terrorism. Terrorism uses fear to get what you want. But he wasn't looking to terrorize the populace to get them to do something, he was looking for revenge and revolution. That's not necessarily terrorism. Terrorists will often take similar measures, but it's not the measure in and of itself which makes the terrorist. The terrorist goes above and beyond individual acts of lunacy.
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The government labeling someone as a terrorist doesn't make someone a terrorist. The government isn't the end say in reality.



    He blew up a building...of course there were a lot injured and killed. I'm not excusing his actions, I am just saying it's not an act of terrorism. It wasn't done to terrorize, that's not the goal. And one guy doing this...what sort of fear can you install if you're a lone wolf and get caught? None. Terrorists uses terror, that's why they're called terrorists. In his case there was no intent to terrorize.



    It is easy to get to, less guarded than most military buildings, and was a federal building. If your anger is against the government, you're mostly going to go after government targets. There's nothing that says you have to first take down the White House, Congress, or Pentagon. Especially since McVeigh was looking to punish the federal government, maybe start a revolution. This isn't terror based. I'm not saying it was rightful, I'm not saying he was in his right frame of mind. It's merely not an act of terrorism, there was no use of terror. You HAVE to have the use of terror for it to be terrorism. It can not be terrorism without the terror.



    So what? I have the anarchist cookbook...am I an anarchist? And even if I employed something out of that book, would that make me an anarchist? No, of course not. The Turner Diaries is some white supremest book that has a revolution in it. McVeigh may have been inspired by it because they blew up federal buildings, but it takes more than that to make a terrorist.



    I would say said reasonable person doesn't understand what terrorism actually is. It takes more than blowing up a building to be a terrorist.
    Terrorism is generally considered to be violent or destructive acts against people, and bombing is the main method.
    The Taliban would say that they are not terrorizing too...
    They have specific objectives as to the methods that they use.

    your anarchist thing is illogical.
    The Turner Diaries describe terrorist activities...
    To buy the Anarchist Cookbook would not make you an anarchist or a cookbook, it would make you one that likes bombs.
    If the Turner Diaries describe terrorist like activities, that makes McVeigh one that is interested in terrorist like activities...

    I understand what you are saying... but seriously, reasonably what he did was terrorism. It might be more than that too, and that is fine, but having military objectives does not negate teh terrorist aspect of the bombing...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  4. #54
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Anti-government doesn't make you a terrorist. His motivation was revenge on the government and some delusions of grandeur of starting a revolution. That doesn't make terrorism. Terrorism uses fear to get what you want. But he wasn't looking to terrorize the populace to get them to do something, he was looking for revenge and revolution. That's not necessarily terrorism. Terrorists will often take similar measures, but it's not the measure in and of itself which makes the terrorist. The terrorist goes above and beyond individual acts of lunacy.
    If he didn't have an intent to scare people he'd never have pointed out how scared people were as a measure of his success. You saw the quote.

    He also said,

    McVeigh responded, "Think about the people as if they were storm troopers in Star Wars. They may be individually innocent, but they are guilty because they work for the Evil Empire."
    Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So as crazy as he was he basically knew he was targeting innocent civilians, he knew -as my previous quote showed- that he was gonna scare people.

    He worked with other anti-American folks and tried to pursue them towards his agenda.

    He absolutely was a terrorist by most any definition. It's mind boggling to me that anyone would argue otherwise.

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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I disagree. He was a complete anti-American government nut job who liked to hang out with other anti-American nut jobs. Terrorists often do things in revenge, they often do things on special dates, etc.

    You say he never had any intent to terrorize yet look at this quote:



    Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    He was totally a terrorist. He had an anti government agenda, an intent to wreak havoc and cause fear, and he was a depressed loser that had trouble getting laid. He couldn't more obviously fit the profile of a terrorist if he tried.


    I see you point, Tal. I agree that he was an anti-government lunatic with an agenda.

    I suppose I don't see him as a terrorist because he was not specifically linked to a group of terrorists that have a real identity.

    Maybe he was but ... I cannot see his activities being compared to those of Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizballah, ect ...

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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I see you point, Tal. I agree that he was an anti-government lunatic with an agenda.

    I suppose I don't see him as a terrorist because he was not specifically linked to a group of terrorists that have a real identity.

    Maybe he was but ... I cannot see his activities being compared to those of Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizballah, ect ...

    I appreciate your willingness to be reasonable and reach a compromise...
    I agree that he is/was nothing like Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizballah, ect. as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Terrorism is generally considered to be violent or destructive acts against people, and bombing is the main method.
    The Taliban would say that they are not terrorizing too...
    They have specific objectives as to the methods that they use.

    your anarchist thing is illogical.
    The Turner Diaries describe terrorist activities...
    To buy the Anarchist Cookbook would not make you an anarchist or a cookbook, it would make you one that likes bombs.
    If the Turner Diaries describe terrorist like activities, that makes McVeigh one that is interested in terrorist like activities...

    I understand what you are saying... but seriously, reasonably what he did was terrorism. It might be more than that too, and that is fine, but having military objectives does not negate teh terrorist aspect of the bombing...
    What sorta magic is applied to make the little thingies that fall and blow up on often time on kids not be a bomb? What is our main method of softening that which we are about to occupy? Bombing is the main ingredient in it. It's considered terrorism then huh?

    I agree with you in this warped way. We should not be creating hate. If it needs to be dealt with you deal with it person to person. You send your troops in with closed circuit camera once they meet action. You want to meet the people that hate you for who you are. Not meet the people whos only son died in an allied bombing.
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    What sorta magic is applied to make the little thingies that fall and blow up on often time on kids not be a bomb? What is our main method of softening that which we are about to occupy? Bombing is the main ingredient in it. It's considered terrorism then huh?

    I agree with you in this warped way. We should not be creating hate. If it needs to be dealt with you deal with it person to person. You send your troops in with closed circuit camera once they meet action. You want to meet the people that hate you for who you are. Not meet the people whos only son died in an allied bombing.
    I hear you and disagree with this point...

    Let me clarify. Bombs that are used like suicide bombs, roadsides bombs, truck bombs, etc that are DESIGNED to impact civilians. Our military does not target civilians. End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I hear you and disagree with this point...

    Let me clarify. Bombs that are used like suicide bombs, roadsides bombs, truck bombs, etc that are DESIGNED to impact civilians. Our military does not target civilians. End of story.
    Of course. Of course.
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    If he didn't have an intent to scare people he'd never have pointed out how scared people were as a measure of his success. You saw the quote.

    He also said,



    Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So as crazy as he was he basically knew he was targeting innocent civilians, he knew -as my previous quote showed- that he was gonna scare people.

    He worked with other anti-American folks and tried to pursue them towards his agenda.

    He absolutely was a terrorist by most any definition. It's mind boggling to me that anyone would argue otherwise.
    This is a good point. I don't think the case can be made McVeigh is a terrorist because he blew up a building, but linking it to the purposeful use of terror does make a much better case for him having been a terrorist. I don't agree with Bodhisattva's definition of terrorism, because acting against the people and blowing things up...then damn our government is one of the biggest terrorist organizations in the world. I wouldn't necessarily say that is true, but we make a distinction between strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a market and dropping bombs out of a plane and taking out a country. Though the end result is the same. I take more the Webster's definition of terrorism

    Terrorism, according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary,[1] is the systematic use of terror, "violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands."

    Our military has, BTW, targeted civilians; just to be clear.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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