View Poll Results: Founding Fathers. Terrorists?

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  • Yes. Terrorists.

    4 21.05%
  • Nope. Heros.

    14 73.68%
  • The definition of terrorist must be too broad.

    3 15.79%
  • We must make more of certian elements considered terrorism.

    1 5.26%
  • We must fund more of classes like these.

    1 5.26%
  • Why are taxpayers funding this?

    7 36.84%
  • I like pork but not pork biproducts.

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

  1. #41
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    So. Do you think that they could be considered terrorists? How much broader should the definition of terrorist be? Should we taxpayers be paying for classes that teach this?
    Since I'm American I would say no. However the Brittish of the time may very well have thought that they were. All dependso on your POV really.

    We consider the Taliban to be terrorists...but do they consider themselves terrorists? Or freedom fighters? While there is a definate difference in terms the terms are still subjective to ones POV.
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Since I'm American I would say no. However the Brittish of the time may very well have thought that they were. All dependso on your POV really.

    We consider the Taliban to be terrorists...but do they consider themselves terrorists? Or freedom fighters? While there is a definate difference in terms the terms are still subjective to ones POV.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, he was not a terrorist. First off, he was an individual and wasn't part of a larger organization. It's hard for a lone sheep to be a terrorist because of what a terrorist organization must do in order to be heard by some government. Second, he was not looking to inspire fear; in fact it was the exact opposite. He wanted to inspire further action against the government. Terrorist terrorize, that's why they are named that way. Terror is a big tool, the defining tool, they use to accomplish their goals. McVeigh's goals were not to inspire terror. He thought that the government was acting improperly for too long and needed to be disposed of. He didn't care about inspiring terror in the government to yield to his demands since the goal was the overthrow of the government. Nor did he want to terrorize the People into giving into demands because he wanted to jump start a revolution. He wanted people to join the cause, not fear it. He blew up a government building in his war against the government. All government buildings are legitimate targets when the goal is revolution. The government put the day-care in there, not him. The government should understand that their buildings can be considered legitimate targets, and they are. If you wish to revolt against the government, you may take down their buildings...or take them over; but you'll need a larger force for that.
    He was convicted of domestic terrorism...
    He killed on 10 or so Federal Agents...
    He killed 19 children...
    He killed 130 or so regular office workers in the building...
    He wounded upwards of 700-800 innocent people as well...

    He chose Oaklahoma City not for a military target, but because it was in the heartland of the USA...
    He used the Turner Diaries as a blue print for his plans, and the Diaries were a blue print for domestic terrorism,
    In fact, a few pages were found in the car that he drove away in...

    I think that to any reasonable person, McVeigh was a terrorist conducting a terrorst operation...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
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  4. #44
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    YouTube - FEMA Says Founding Fathers Are Terrorists

    So. Do you think that they could be considered terrorists? How much broader should the definition of terrorist be? Should we taxpayers be paying for classes that teach this?
    This is an inappropriate comparison.

    FEMA can shut their retardted, un-American, pie holes.

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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Exactly. The government wants to expand the definition of terrorism and use it in its normal enforcement routine. It's a way to encourage fear in the populace of some form of attack and removes some resistance they would normally have when increasing their size and power.



    No, he was not a terrorist. First off, he was an individual and wasn't part of a larger organization. It's hard for a lone sheep to be a terrorist because of what a terrorist organization must do in order to be heard by some government. Second, he was not looking to inspire fear; in fact it was the exact opposite. He wanted to inspire further action against the government. Terrorist terrorize, that's why they are named that way. Terror is a big tool, the defining tool, they use to accomplish their goals. McVeigh's goals were not to inspire terror. He thought that the government was acting improperly for too long and needed to be disposed of. He didn't care about inspiring terror in the government to yield to his demands since the goal was the overthrow of the government. Nor did he want to terrorize the People into giving into demands because he wanted to jump start a revolution. He wanted people to join the cause, not fear it. He blew up a government building in his war against the government. All government buildings are legitimate targets when the goal is revolution. The government put the day-care in there, not him. The government should understand that their buildings can be considered legitimate targets, and they are. If you wish to revolt against the government, you may take down their buildings...or take them over; but you'll need a larger force for that.
    Timothy McVeigh was absolutely a terrorist. He even had the MO of most every terrorist - depressed with no sex life.

  6. #46
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Pretty much. He was a nut job for sure; but not a terrorist. Blowing up buildings doesn't in and of itself define terrorism.
    He was not a terrorist. He was a right wing nazi looney toon out for revenge. His attack was not ment to terrorize; rather, it was an attempt at vengence against those he saw as enemies.

    Again --- he was a homocidal lunatic but he cannot be considered a terrorist because the intent of his actions was not terror.

    I can see why people call him a terrorist; his actions appear that way, however, he lacks the political idiology to be classified a terrorist.

  7. #47
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Timothy McVeigh was absolutely a terrorist. He even had the MO of most every terrorist - depressed with no sex life.
    LOL

    He should've been terrorizing serority houses instead of the FBI. He might have had better luck.


  8. #48
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He was convicted of domestic terrorism...
    The government labeling someone as a terrorist doesn't make someone a terrorist. The government isn't the end say in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He killed on 10 or so Federal Agents...
    He killed 19 children...
    He killed 130 or so regular office workers in the building...
    He wounded upwards of 700-800 innocent people as well...
    He blew up a building...of course there were a lot injured and killed. I'm not excusing his actions, I am just saying it's not an act of terrorism. It wasn't done to terrorize, that's not the goal. And one guy doing this...what sort of fear can you install if you're a lone wolf and get caught? None. Terrorists uses terror, that's why they're called terrorists. In his case there was no intent to terrorize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He chose Oaklahoma City not for a military target, but because it was in the heartland of the USA...
    It is easy to get to, less guarded than most military buildings, and was a federal building. If your anger is against the government, you're mostly going to go after government targets. There's nothing that says you have to first take down the White House, Congress, or Pentagon. Especially since McVeigh was looking to punish the federal government, maybe start a revolution. This isn't terror based. I'm not saying it was rightful, I'm not saying he was in his right frame of mind. It's merely not an act of terrorism, there was no use of terror. You HAVE to have the use of terror for it to be terrorism. It can not be terrorism without the terror.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He used the Turner Diaries as a blue print for his plans, and the Diaries were a blue print for domestic terrorism,
    In fact, a few pages were found in the car that he drove away in...
    So what? I have the anarchist cookbook...am I an anarchist? And even if I employed something out of that book, would that make me an anarchist? No, of course not. The Turner Diaries is some white supremest book that has a revolution in it. McVeigh may have been inspired by it because they blew up federal buildings, but it takes more than that to make a terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I think that to any reasonable person, McVeigh was a terrorist conducting a terrorst operation...
    I would say said reasonable person doesn't understand what terrorism actually is. It takes more than blowing up a building to be a terrorist.
    Last edited by Ikari; 03-02-09 at 04:50 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Timothy McVeigh was absolutely a terrorist. He even had the MO of most every terrorist - depressed with no sex life.
    You just described 58% of the scientific community.


    heheh j/k. We're not that bad...seriously.
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    He was not a terrorist. He was a right wing nazi looney toon out for revenge. His attack was not ment to terrorize; rather, it was an attempt at vengence against those he saw as enemies.

    Again --- he was a homocidal lunatic but he cannot be considered a terrorist because the intent of his actions was not terror.

    I can see why people call him a terrorist; his actions appear that way, however, he lacks the political idiology to be classified a terrorist.
    I disagree. He was a complete anti-American government nut job who liked to hang out with other anti-American nut jobs. Terrorists often do things in revenge, they often do things on special dates, etc.

    You say he never had any intent to terrorize yet look at this quote:

    In reference to theories that he had assistance from others, McVeigh responded, "You can't handle the truth. Because the truth is, I blew up the Murrah Building, and isn't it kind of scary that one man could wreak this kind of hell?"[52]
    Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    He was totally a terrorist. He had an anti government agenda, an intent to wreak havoc and cause fear, and he was a depressed loser that had trouble getting laid. He couldn't more obviously fit the profile of a terrorist if he tried.

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