View Poll Results: Founding Fathers. Terrorists?

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  • Yes. Terrorists.

    4 21.05%
  • Nope. Heros.

    14 73.68%
  • The definition of terrorist must be too broad.

    3 15.79%
  • We must make more of certian elements considered terrorism.

    1 5.26%
  • We must fund more of classes like these.

    1 5.26%
  • Why are taxpayers funding this?

    7 36.84%
  • I like pork but not pork biproducts.

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

  1. #91
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Ok, so you say the US government doesn't target civilians, I say we have. You say prove it, I prove it; you say it's irrelevant. Nice. I'm gonna use this "logic" from now on.

    Sorry to say it, but with your "logic" the USA is still a slaveholding nation...

    Apparently, all you have to do is go far enough back in time in order to find any reference that fits your position.
    Hey, should we call the Italiens... Romans?
    The US is a nation the uses the gold standard...
    South Africa is a nation of government sanctioned Apartheid...

    I love this "logic: Ikari! Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  2. #92
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    No sex!!!!???? Damn, I had better get out there and get some before I become a terrorist!!

    We better just send your photo to the FBI now, for you aint got a chance...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  3. #93
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Actually, I believe this would be a far better analogy than Ikariís use of wartime bombings because it is true. Our Government and military did conduct a terror campaign against Native Americans in order to remove them from their lands or provoke them into a war they could not win. It is a dark period in our history much like slavery was.

    I agree. The USA practiced and executed a systematic plan of murder, terror and persecution against the Natives of America, yet most people never mention it. I don't think that most people realize the extent of it, to be honest, but it was brutal and unrelenting, as I am sure you already know.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  4. #94
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Sorry to say it, but with your "logic" the USA is still a slaveholding nation...

    Apparently, all you have to do is go far enough back in time in order to find any reference that fits your position.
    Hey, should we call the Italiens... Romans?
    The US is a nation the uses the gold standard...
    South Africa is a nation of government sanctioned Apartheid...

    I love this "logic: Ikari! Thanks!
    Think we didn't kill civilians in Vietnam? Think civilians didn't die in either Iraq? What about Clinton's missile strikes, nothing? You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Our military does not target civilians. End of story.
    This is an absolute statement, I merely had shown that these aren't absolutes. And now just absurdity from your part because you got beat. Don't make absolute statements, sorry but we have targeted civilians and we don't necessarily pull out if is a civilian element. We've often stuck where there were civilians. So basically you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I would like you to provide evidence of the US Government specifically targeting civilians, since you just made that bold claim.
    I told you when we did, you said it's not valid even though you made an statement of absolution. You should watch your rhetoric. Also, just to be clear when I agreed with talloulou; you were not saying the same exact thing as her. She showed how McVeigh could have been relying on terror to get his way; that's a valid claim to terrorism. You're basically defining terrorism as people who blow up things whom we don't like. Al Queda is a terrorist organization. They use terror to try to influence the People and governments. That's what makes a terrorist. Merely blowing something up isn't an act of terrorism, there has to be more to it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  5. #95
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I'll give you this..

    "The threats of violence by which the Sons of Liberty exercised authority in America were transformed by three thousand miles of ocean into an impertinence, and with Parliament, which had dealt with mobs before, replied to the challenge of cramming stamps down American throats. When the Sons of Liberty heard this, they knew that they might have to fight for their rights not against a few helpless stamp distributors, but against the British Army."
    I have already posted how the act was repealed and it is historically accurate. Having someone tared and feathered or stamps crammed down your throat does not compare to being blown up or beheaded.

    Sorry but your examples are not even close to the modern dictionary definition of a terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I've been through this with Aquapub -

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057924367-post396.html

    - and various others who cannot believe SOME of the founding fathers used terror against civilian stamp collectors - maybe it's worth going over some of the ground I covered there and you may wish to use some of the American history books that I suggested he read too.

    I'll be here when you get back.
    Some of them were ruffians but not terrorists. Again does not compare at all.

    What is even more ridicules is that a relatively bloodless strong arming of a few individuals is now terrorism? Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Careful what you say..
    Give me a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Many of the stamp collectors were colonists, born and bred. You have read about the warning given by the Sons of Liberty when they spoke in New York. Fairly straightforward and easy to understand threat against civilian targets I'm afraid. I'll see if you can find it - if not, I'll happily post a link for you.
    The threat was against supporters of the crown who were civilians. A threat does not make one a terrorist.


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  6. #96
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Think we didn't kill civilians in Vietnam? Think civilians didn't die in either Iraq? What about Clinton's missile strikes, nothing? You said:
    Wrong.


    Originally Posted by Bodhisattva
    Our military does not target civilians. End of story.
    Until you can show us/me where it is in the military strategic planning/doctrine that expressly dictates that our United States Military is ordered to SPECIFICALLY TARGETS CIVILIANS... you aint got ****. Sorry sweatheart.

    End of Story.

    WWII is in the past. We are in the present. The Iraq War is the PRESENT WAR.
    WWII is Irrelevant.
    Vietnam is Irrelevant.
    The Civil War is Irrelevant.

    Show where in Clintons Missile Strikes it indicated or specified that our military was to engage and kill civilians please. Thanks.

    I am not sure that you understand the difference between collatoral damage and what is a specific agenda.


    This is an absolute statement, I merely had shown that these aren't absolutes. And now just absurdity from your part because you got beat. Don't make absolute statements, sorry but we have targeted civilians and we don't necessarily pull out if is a civilian element. We've often stuck where there were civilians. So basically you said:
    Striking where civilians are is not targeting civilians. You didn't beat anything.
    You are merely showing that you don't understand what specifically targeting civilians means.



    I told you when we did, you said it's not valid even though you made an statement of absolution. You should watch your rhetoric. Also, just to be clear when I agreed with talloulou; you were not saying the same exact thing as her. She showed how McVeigh could have been relying on terror to get his way; that's a valid claim to terrorism. You're basically defining terrorism as people who blow up things whom we don't like. Al Queda is a terrorist organization. They use terror to try to influence the People and governments. That's what makes a terrorist. Merely blowing something up isn't an act of terrorism, there has to be more to it.
    I was not saying that his sole purpose of blowing **** up was to cause terror.
    I never said that. I said that he was a terrorist. Show me where I said that
    his sole goal was to cause terror or keep your assumptions to yourself.

    I have also differentiated between simply blowing things up and what terrorists do...

    One reason that McVeigh blew up those buildings was to cause terror, that
    is also a byproduct of war, but it is still terrorism if that is in your agenda.

    What Tal and I said were very similar. To the extent that we were basically
    saying the same thing. I never said that we said the exact same thing, you did.
    I think that you need to get off of the assumption train and read what I am
    actually saying instead of misinterpreting things so out of context.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  7. #97
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    -- I have already posted how the act was repealed and it is historically accurate. Having someone tared and feathered or stamps crammed down your throat does not compare to being blown up or beheaded.

    Sorry but your examples are not even close to the modern dictionary definition of a terrorist.
    The highlighted part of your reply is where your problem starts. I won't ask you to find the modern dictionary definition that tells us a terrorist ONLY uses methods that we associate with those who blow up or behead people. In 100 years time when whatever new technology is being used by terrorists - will that make Al Q'aeda into "freedom fighters" because they only beheaded people when methods 100 years away may be so different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    -- Some of them were ruffians but not terrorists. Again does not compare at all.
    Afraid it does - don't confuse intention with tactics. The tactic was to instill fear and to intimidate. A terrorist beheading one person does not instill fear in that person - but in others who might follow. Hamas know their unguided missiles have a very low percentage chance of hitting human targets - it's the fear that terrorises.

    What is even more ridicules is that a relatively bloodless strong arming of a few individuals is now terrorism? Wow.
    Wow - but true. Again, it is not the tactics but the intention behind the strong arming. The tactic was to instill fear and make all stamp agents resign their jobs for FEAR of being targetted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Give me a break.
    Not because you're an American I won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    A threat does not make one a terrorist.
    What do you think sending unguided missiles into Israel is? The chances of an accurate hit are miniscule but the fear that people in Israel live with daily is palpable I'm afraid.

    Did you get the chance to look at any of those books? I'll hang on - some of them are by American Professors of history at US colleges so I'm happy to use US sources. I won't bother to source JSTOR for this unless you have access to Academic Research gateways.

  8. #98
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And we all know how similar dumping tea into the Boston harbor is to sending children with bombbelts to blow up innocent civilians.
    Most terror is done by states.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #99
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Sorry but your examples are not even close to the modern dictionary definition of a terrorist.
    Dictionaries aren't politically sophisticated. Terrorism is just about the tactics of terror. No doubt a lot of dictionaries neglect to mention that the vast majority of this, including the terror from which the name comes from, the Great Terror, are done by gov'ts.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #100
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    Re: Founding Fathers of America. Terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Did you get the chance to look at any of those books? I'll hang on - some of them are by American Professors of history at US colleges so I'm happy to use US sources. I won't bother to source JSTOR for this unless you have access to Academic Research gateways.
    I am not in college, and have not been for a very long time so I have no access.

    This does not change the fact they were not terrorists. By the definition they are not and were not.

    Like I said all terrorists are rebels, but all rebels are not terrorists.


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