View Poll Results: how are family values today compared to yesterday?

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  • values are higher than before

    2 7.41%
  • values are the same

    9 33.33%
  • values are lower than before

    16 59.26%
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Thread: Family Values

  1. #71
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    It's not as easy as that I'm afraid.

    Court proceedings in countries where lawyers and judges get involved can be very time consuming and antagonism is a profitable thing for the lawyers.

    For many fathers who've managed to keep contact going despite hostility and alienation syndrome by the mother you will find dozens if not more more fathers who have given up the fight. It's not about being a good dad or even being able to fight - it's about being patient and determined to keep fighting to see your kids.

    Even where a father might keep fighting, if his kids are alienated against him or they learn to call someone else "dad" then the odds are against. Many fathers eventually stop trying and instead wait for the children to become adults who have their own minds and can search out the father and hear their side of the story.
    Whatever the issue is men need to work it out. If it's a discrimination problem in the courts men need to join together and fight that battle once and for all. If all these men -who don't see their own children - are blaming the women then one has to ask how weak have men become? It's your job to see to your children. It's your job to remain in their lives. To sit around and wait for the kid to be an adult and seek you out is cowardly and selfish. It is also detrimental to your child. If you can't hold your marriage together then you should make every effort possible to hold your relationship with your child together. Not for yourself but for the kid. There's really no excuse for the amount of children who claim to not know their fathers. The amount of kids who see their dad maybe a handful of times while growing up. It's indefensible. Men need to work it out.

  2. #72
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    -- There's really no excuse for the amount of children who claim to not know their fathers. The amount of kids who see their dad maybe a handful of times while growing up. It's indefensible. Men need to work it out.
    On one hand I agree with you that many men give up too easy. However until you have seen the court fight that many men have to go through to get the battle going to see their kids you should not generalise.

    I act as a McKenzie (a court advisor to those who cannot afford a solicitor in family + contact cases) and have seen and advised all sorts of fathers (and some mothers who battle to see their kids) and can tell you from personal experience in court that it is not simply down to the father / men to work it out.

    The basic problem is a "winner takes all" court system that by its nature, rewards those who win custody to act as "possessors" of children. I don't know how the child maintenance system works in the USA but the UK one has a basic premise behind it - the more contact a father has with his children - the less maintenance he pays. I'm sure you can see the pluses and minuses of the system: a father with lots of contact time obviously has lots of care costs to cover so should not pay more maintenance. However, the counterside of that is that a mother who restricts contact or cuts it off stands to claim a greater percentage of her ex's salary as child maintenance.

  3. #73
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    On one hand I agree with you that many men give up too easy. However until you have seen the court fight that many men have to go through to get the battle going to see their kids you should not generalise.

    I act as a McKenzie (a court advisor to those who cannot afford a solicitor in family + contact cases) and have seen and advised all sorts of fathers (and some mothers who battle to see their kids) and can tell you from personal experience in court that it is not simply down to the father / men to work it out.

    The basic problem is a "winner takes all" court system that by its nature, rewards those who win custody to act as "possessors" of children. I don't know how the child maintenance system works in the USA but the UK one has a basic premise behind it - the more contact a father has with his children - the less maintenance he pays. I'm sure you can see the pluses and minuses of the system: a father with lots of contact time obviously has lots of care costs to cover so should not pay more maintenance. However, the counterside of that is that a mother who restricts contact or cuts it off stands to claim a greater percentage of her ex's salary as child maintenance.
    I think in most states here in the US child support is not tied in anyway to visitation.

    However if your ex wife is so inclined she can make visitation very inconvenient if not impossible. But again, men need to band together and fight for their father/parenting rights in courts as a group. There are many problems with men being forced to pay for children that aren't theirs and there is no law that says a woman must tell a man she has had his baby. So it's not all together uncommon for a one night stand to result in a child the father is completely oblivious about for years. A woman can successfully take a man to court when a child is 3, sue for child support, and win despite his just being told that he even has a kid. Women have the right to abort a child and thus they have complete control over when they become a parent while men don't even have the right to know that they have parented a child. The only way to get the pendulum to swing back to a more fair center is for men to join together in insisting on changes in the system. Women should be held accountable for manipulating and abusing the system. Children aren't pawns. I'm positively shocked by what men sit around and take when it comes to children and their rights as fathers. On a womans whim they are easily turned into sperm donors and wallets. Fathers are not optional. But it is up to them to recognize the unfairness of the system and demand their rights as a group. Otherwise it just appears as if they don't care and enjoy having an excuse to be let off the hook. The damage this does to children is seen throughout our entire society.
    Last edited by talloulou; 03-02-09 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Family Values

    My family values were higher yesterday than today. Of course my husband did buy me a new phone yesterday so that may or may not have something to do with it......
    Is what you're living for today, worth dying for tomorrow?
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I think in most states here in the US child support is not tied in anyway to visitation.

    However if your ex wife is so inclined she can make visitation very inconvenient if not impossible. But again, men need to band together and fight for their father/parenting rights in courts as a group. There are many problems with men being forced to pay for children that aren't theirs and there is no law that says a woman must tell a man she has had his baby. So it's not all together uncommon for a one night stand to result in a child the father is completely oblivious about for years. A woman can successfully take a man to court when a child is 3, sue for child support, and win despite his just being told that he even has a kid. Women have the right to abort a child and thus they have complete control over when they become a parent while men don't even have the right to know that they have parented a child. The only way to get the pendulum to swing back to a more fair center is for men to join together in insisting on changes in the system. Women should be held accountable for manipulating and abusing the system. Children aren't pawns. I'm positively shocked by what men sit around and take when it comes to children and their rights as fathers. On a womans whim they are easily turned into sperm donors and wallets. Fathers are not optional. But it is up to them to recognize the unfairness of the system and demand their rights as a group. Otherwise it just appears as if they don't care and enjoy having an excuse to be let off the hook. The damage this does to children is seen throughout our entire society.
    Fathers' rights is a growing legal industry right now for those very reasons.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    -- men need to band together and fight for their father/parenting rights in courts as a group--
    There just isn't the information available to young men or boys at school when information about abortions, raising children etc is thrown at girls from the onset of puberty.

    Another thing we have here in the UK is social housing - houses that are owned by local govt and tenancy is distributed according to need. Young girls know that if they become pregnant they immediately go to the top of the housing list and can get themselves a house to themselves. The problem in that scenario is that if a father is on the scene she may lose that right to a house. Children's rights to contact with both parents are damned in such a scenario.

    What hope is there for men when the information is not available about the consequences of becoming a father and losing contact?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    -- it's not all together uncommon for a one night stand to result in a child the father is completely oblivious about for years. A woman can successfully take a man to court when a child is 3, sue for child support, and win despite his just being told that he even has a kid.
    I am and will always be in favour of both parents being responsible for the costs of raising their children. Whether the father has contact or not, he should if he can support his child / children. That's whether he's known them all their lives or he is informed after a period of time.

    The UK system changed a while back - if a mother made a claim on social funds she was obliged to inform the authorities of who the father was. If she falsely accuses someone who subsequently (through DNA) finds he is not the father then he gets all his money back.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    -- Otherwise it just appears as if they don't care and enjoy having an excuse to be let off the hook. The damage this does to children is seen throughout our entire society.
    To be honest, very few people actually care or are completely ignorant of how bad the situation is until they find themselves with a letter saying their children don't want any contact or a court states that the parent with custody has successfully blocked all attempts at contact and it is not in the interests of the child to allow contact.

    One chief justice in 2003 issued his view that if the mother was so implacably hostile to contact that it distressed the child, then no contact with the father would be allowed.

    There is a long uphill battle and the first bit is the men's magazines to start actually informing men of the minefield that is becoming a father.

  7. #77
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    Re: Family Values

    Good points. Boys should be taught all about the inconsistencies within the legal system when it comes to parenting and their rights right along with sex ed.

  8. #78
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I think you need to make a clear distinction between a dad who abandons his kids, prehaps as a result of a divorce(or sometimes not) and dads who are simply unable to live with their kids due to a divorce. When a divorce happens, its not as if dad is asked by the judge if he would like to remain living with his ex-wife and children. There is a huge difference between the two. And I have experienced both myself. I do not know, nor have I ever met my biological father(well, since I was about 18 months old I guess). I did see my step father for a while, after he and my mother got divorced.

    Part of the problem with young men not knowing how to be "fathers" could certainley stem from the abandonment issues you spoke of. I think its mostly because our society is putting so much damn emphasis on empathy these days, something most men are simply short on.

    The bolded portion is exactly one of the points that I was trying to convey...
    Well pu Crip.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  9. #79
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Are you aware that the biggest obstacle to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was Democrats? No, of course you don't, because that would require some kind of historical knowledge and objectivity.
    The point you are responding to was about liberals. Not southern conservative Democrats, many of which jumped ship to the Republican Party after the Civil Rights Act.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #80
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I don't disagree. But the "why" is irrelevant to someone like myself who doesn't sit in judgment of "why" others choose to leave a relationship. The "why" - to me and to everyone else - is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that if people are not happy in a relationship, then they need to either fix it or get out of it. There is no "value" in forcing people to remain in unhealthy situations. Even if someone does think they left for a 'stupid' reason.
    My point has nothing to do with keeping an existing bad relationship together or to casting blame. I hope that you understand that.

    I was not indicating that the why is important for justification/judgement reasons, but rather as a means to understanding how and why the relationship failed, so that those within it can learn and apply new methods towards getting along so that all within the unit, whether it be divorced with new partners or not, are happier and better adjusted so that all prosper, especially any children.

    For that reason, and for others as well, I would argue that the why is relevant to everybody, including you.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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