View Poll Results: how are family values today compared to yesterday?

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  • values are higher than before

    2 7.41%
  • values are the same

    9 33.33%
  • values are lower than before

    16 59.26%
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Thread: Family Values

  1. #51
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron
    No fault divorce was first introduced to this country in 1970. Divorce rates have been going up since then until today when most marriages end in divorce.

    to me it looks like divorce rates hovered around 25% through the 50s and 60s, maybe increased a few percentage points, they went up dramatically from 1968 to 1976, and have been hovering around 50% ever since then. the divorce rate was exactly 50% in both 1978 and 2004.

  2. #52
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron View Post
    "Nothing can "weaken" a family other than the family itself." - rivrrat

    See above.
    How do divorce rate statistics contradict the fact that nothing can weaken a family or relationship except those within it?

    People now stay together because they want to, not because they are forced to by the government. That makes relationships stronger, not weaker.

    The only thing you have pointed out is that due to easier divorces, more unhappy people are getting divorced; something that I think is fan-****ing-tastic. There is no "strength" in an unhappy "family" that's forced to stay together against their will. There is no good in that, anywhere.. for anyone. There is only misery.

  3. #53
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    Re: Family Values

    “How do divorce rate statistics contradict the fact…” – rivrrat

    Please site the source of your “fact”.

    “…that nothing can weaken a family or relationship except those within it?” – rivrrat

    Obviously those within the relationship have the power to harm the relationship the most. This is hardly a revolutionary observation.

    However, making divorce easier only harms the “traditional values” originally brought into question by this thread. Marriage was intended as a permanent relationship “until death do we part” that was intended to transcend the good times and bad times that couples will inevitably go through during the course of a lifetime.

    “People now stay together because they want to, not because they are forced to by the government. That makes relationships stronger, not weaker.” – rivrrat

    I suppose I could point out that people also tend to stay together due to tough economic times but what would that do to your theory then?

    “The only thing you have pointed out is that due to easier divorces, more unhappy people are getting divorced; something that I think is fan-****ing-tastic. There is no "strength" in an unhappy "family" that's forced to stay together against their will.” – rivrrat

    …against their will?

    Think that through for just a moment, won’t you?

    Because at the end of the day, love is a choice not an emotion. And those who "choose" to abandon the commitment to their marriage only end up harming their spouses, children, et al.

    1 Corinthians 13
    "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails." - NIV
    "Liberalism is a doctrine fostered by a delusional and illogical people and rabidly promoted by the mainstream media and ruling elite which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - unknown

  4. #54
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron View Post
    “How do divorce rate statistics contradict the fact…” – rivrrat

    Please site the source of your “fact”.
    Common sense. Hell, you even acknowledge it below.

    Obviously those within the relationship have the power to harm the relationship the most. This is hardly a revolutionary observation.

    However, making divorce easier only harms the “traditional values” originally brought into question by this thread. Marriage was intended as a permanent relationship “until death do we part” that was intended to transcend the good times and bad times that couples will inevitably go through during the course of a lifetime.
    And that notion is antiquated and damaging.

    “People now stay together because they want to, not because they are forced to by the government. That makes relationships stronger, not weaker.” – rivrrat

    I suppose I could point out that people also tend to stay together due to tough economic times but what would that do to your theory then?
    What theory is that, exactly? If people remain in a relationship for money, I don't consider that a good or healthy thing either. Unless of course, that makes them happy. But regardless, if they CHOOSE to stay together for money, then that is their CHOICE. Are you getting the key word here? No fault divorces simply give people more CHOICE, and that is always a good thing.

    “The only thing you have pointed out is that due to easier divorces, more unhappy people are getting divorced; something that I think is fan-****ing-tastic. There is no "strength" in an unhappy "family" that's forced to stay together against their will.” – rivrrat

    …against their will?

    Think that through for just a moment, won’t you?
    Already did. If someone wants out of a relationship and they are forced to remain in it, that is against their will.. What is there to "think through"?

    Because at the end of the day, love is a choice not an emotion. And those who "choose" to abandon the commitment to their marriage only end up harming their spouses, children, et al.
    Commitment is a choice, love is NOT a choice.

    Those who end a commitment that is toxic to the people involved do NOT harm anyone, they HELP themselves and if there are children involved, it helps them too. Staying in a relationship where everyone is unhappy is harming everyone involved. It's just - for lack of a better word - stupid.

    1 Corinthians 13
    "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails." - NIV[/SIZE][/FONT]
    Quoting mythology at me? How is this relevant to anything?

    But hey, I'll go along:

    A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with the garden.
    Buddha
    Last edited by rivrrat; 03-02-09 at 01:27 AM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron View Post
    “How do divorce rate statistics contradict the fact…” – rivrrat

    Please site the source of your “fact”.

    “…that nothing can weaken a family or relationship except those within it?” – rivrrat

    Obviously those within the relationship have the power to harm the relationship the most. This is hardly a revolutionary observation.

    However, making divorce easier only harms the “traditional values” originally brought into question by this thread. Marriage was intended as a permanent relationship “until death do we part” that was intended to transcend the good times and bad times that couples will inevitably go through during the course of a lifetime.

    “People now stay together because they want to, not because they are forced to by the government. That makes relationships stronger, not weaker.” – rivrrat

    I suppose I could point out that people also tend to stay together due to tough economic times but what would that do to your theory then?

    “The only thing you have pointed out is that due to easier divorces, more unhappy people are getting divorced; something that I think is fan-****ing-tastic. There is no "strength" in an unhappy "family" that's forced to stay together against their will.” – rivrrat

    …against their will?

    Think that through for just a moment, won’t you?

    Because at the end of the day, love is a choice not an emotion. And those who "choose" to abandon the commitment to their marriage only end up harming their spouses, children, et al.

    1 Corinthians 13
    "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails." - NIV
    I thanked this for a reason. I think that marriages today fail because people simply do not even try to make it work. At the first snag they just want to leave what is supposedly at the very least a long term commitment. To some extent our society has made it EASIER for people to be pussies about marriage. If I wanted a divorce every time my wife does something I dislike I would have never gotten married. I mean I love the woman but she does **** that some days just drives me up a ****ing wall and has me one button away from dialing up a divorce lawyer. But I don't. Why? Because of my kid I try to make it work and to this day we have worked most of our issues out. But I think for the most part we're an exception. We deal with our problems instead of running the minute we think we can't handle it.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-02-09 at 01:13 AM.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The why is extremely relevant if we want to see the unit be as happy and adjusted as possible...
    I don't disagree. But the "why" is irrelevant to someone like myself who doesn't sit in judgment of "why" others choose to leave a relationship. The "why" - to me and to everyone else - is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that if people are not happy in a relationship, then they need to either fix it or get out of it. There is no "value" in forcing people to remain in unhealthy situations. Even if someone does think they left for a 'stupid' reason.

  7. #57
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I thanked this for a reason. I think that marriages today fail because people simply do not even try to make it work. At the first snag they just want to leave what is supposedly at the very least a long term commitment. To some extent our society has made it EASIER for people to be pussies about marriage. If I wanted a divorce every time my wife does something I dislike I would have never gotten married. I mean I love the woman but she does **** that some days just drives me up a ****ing wall and has me one button away from dialing up a divorce lawyer. But I don't. Why? Because of my kid I try to make it work and to this day we have worked most of our issues out. But I think for the most part we're an exception. We deal with our problems instead of running the minute we think we can't handle it.
    There is a difference between having the occasional issue and being chronically unhappy. I have made this distinction several times. However, why people leave a relationship is irrelevant. It's their business and should always remain their business and no one - especially the government - should ever have the authority to force them to remain in any relationship they no longer wish to be a part of. Period.

  8. #58
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    Re: Family Values

    I've read the entire thread. Great discussion. However, I still am unsure as to what defines family values and what defines a deterioration or an improvement. Very divergent thoughts on these concepts.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

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  9. #59
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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    God I loathe the conservative myth of the superior morality of yesterday.

    Segregation, women's domestic enslavement, the entire world with electricity being divided into two camps who were always five minutes away from obliterating each other, etc.

    No, things were not better.

    They're better now because of liberals.

    If we did what conservatives want we'd still be living in caves.
    Are you aware that the biggest obstacle to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was Democrats? No, of course you don't, because that would require some kind of historical knowledge and objectivity.

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    Re: Family Values

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Are you aware that the biggest obstacle to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was Democrats? No, of course you don't, because that would require some kind of historical knowledge and objectivity.
    I've tried to point that out to him on several occasions.

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