Thread: Family Values

Originally Posted by talloulou

I think it's bs to attempt to paint morals as liberal or conservative. It was liberals who wanted Palin back in the kitchen and it was liberals that made nasty comments about how she couldn't be VP when she had so many kids to take care of. It was also liberals who tore Palin's daughter a new asshole for having the audacity to be a pregnant teen. Both sides of the aisle are perfectly capable of shocking you with their morals. I can't even count how many times I've listened to liberals defend the cruel treatment of middle eastern women by claiming those women like being treated that way.

As to the family I think there has been a "father" problem that wasn't nearly as present in the 50s. In the 50's most kids had a dad at home, their dad. Today most kids are not living with their dad though ultimately many of them end up in some sort of step family. I am curious as to what caused the "father" issue. There was a certain amount of dishonor in the past when it came to walking out on your kids. That shame is gone today. So many men don't live with their kids today that it's fairly common to talk to a man who doesn't share a roof with his children. So common that there's no need to ask, "why?" It's not at all unusual. Some of these men are still active fathers. Many many -too many are not and nobody gives them any **** for it.

I don't know what led to the father problem. I imagine there are a wide variety of factors. But men need to get their crap together.

I think that the "father" issue is as much women walking out on their marriage/husbands as it is men walking out on their family.

The difference is, that the women, for better or worse, is generally granted custody over the children instead of the father...
This makes it appear to be a "father" issue instead of simply a marriage break-up issue...

I agree that there are many horrible dads that abondon their family,
But when emotions and all that are taken into consideration, the woman
has just as much fault many times as the cause of the break-up/walk-out.

“No fault divorce and birth control has done so much good for ‘family values’…” – rivrrat

“No, things were not better. They're better now because of liberals.” – new coup for you

And the continual decline of the family unit is evidence of this?

Really?

Originally Posted by talloulou

I agree. I'm sure that women being able to work and support themselves has led to a situation where women are inclined to walk away from a marriage quicker. That said though - nobody has power over whether or not a dad abandons his kids but dad. I realize the courts are more female friendly but just because maintaining a working relationship with ones child is difficult doesn't mean it's ok to just quit.

I tend to think it's a vicious cycle. We've gone through a large stretch of time where many many men were derelict in teaching their boys how to be men. These absent fathers just gave up on and abandoned their own kids. Then those fatherless men went out and had kids and had no idea how to be a father. This is a huge problem throughout our society. It's an even bigger problem in the African American community where fatherless boys are way more likely to end up in jail. A man brings something to the family -to both his sons and daughters that a woman just can't. Since many of our men today never received this I imagine some of them are at a loss when it comes to how to give it.

Oh, I agree. Personal responsibility is on the one that leaves. A walk-out is different than differences that lead one to want to simply divorce and still see the kids. I did not mean to negate the value of mothers that must deal with this issue, or the fault of dead beat and walk-out fathers. I was just including a more dual role presentation to the issue. There are many variables that lead to these instances, and many times fathers leave/walk out simply due to the vicious/vindictive nature of the woman. Should they bail on their kids? Nope. Many don't know what to do though, since many times these guys aren't that smart, to be honest.

I wonder what percentage of walk-out dads are below the average IQ level?

Still, no excuse, just an understanding...

Originally Posted by rivrrat

Doesn't matter why. Doesn't matter whose fault it is. Doesn't matter if it's because someone needed to "grow up". What matters is people getting out of relationships that do not work for them, that are detrimental to all involved - most especially the children. The why is really irrelevant, IMO.

The why is extremely relevant if we want to see the unit be as happy and adjusted as possible...

Originally Posted by WI Crippler

I don't think we were more moral in the 50's than we are now either. I agree that the chauvanism, racism and ignorance were worse back then. But it was a societal thing, not a liberal or conservative thing. Progress has been made on all those fronts by both movements. I already mentioned what I thought the one alarming trend was, and it has nothing to do with any moral superiority codes. Rather my look back to yesteryear for something that was better than now, was the adult responsibilites the youth of those days were able to take on and overcome. Something I think even my generation is incapable of, as a whole.

Notice how progress as far as chauvanism, racism and ignorance started become a reality at around the same time people started going to church less often, women started fighting for their rights and old timey liberals had their heyday(think flower power, hippies etc.) It is my opinion that liberalism brought all these changes. I think what NCFY is talking about is that on average liberals try to change the status quo while conservatives seek to preserve a way of life. I don't think it has much to do with left or right on any particular position as far as just the role each play in the game.

Originally Posted by talloulou

I agree. I'm sure that women being able to work and support themselves has led to a situation where women are inclined to walk away from a marriage quicker. That said though - nobody has power over whether or not a dad abandons his kids but dad. I realize the courts are more female friendly but just because maintaining a working relationship with ones child is difficult doesn't mean it's ok to just quit.

I tend to think it's a vicious cycle. We've gone through a large stretch of time where many many men were derelict in teaching their boys how to be men. These absent fathers just gave up on and abandoned their own kids. Then those fatherless men went out and had kids and had no idea how to be a father. This is a huge problem throughout our society. It's an even bigger problem in the African American community where fatherless boys are way more likely to end up in jail. A man brings something to the family -to both his sons and daughters that a woman just can't. Since many of our men today never received this I imagine some of them are at a loss when it comes to how to give it.

I think you need to make a clear distinction between a dad who abandons his kids, prehaps as a result of a divorce(or sometimes not) and dads who are simply unable to live with their kids due to a divorce. When a divorce happens, its not as if dad is asked by the judge if he would like to remain living with his ex-wife and children. There is a huge difference between the two. And I have experienced both myself. I do not know, nor have I ever met my biological father(well, since I was about 18 months old I guess). I did see my step father for a while, after he and my mother got divorced.

Part of the problem with young men not knowing how to be "fathers" could certainley stem from the abandonment issues you spoke of. I think its mostly because our society is putting so much damn emphasis on empathy these days, something most men are simply short on.