On average would straight couples make better parents then gay couples?

Kal'Stang said:

And how exactly are you going to "revitalize" the program? Though even then it wouldn't get all the children out of the system. Even if you let homosexuals also adopt there will still be children in the system. However there will be less than without. .

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Just be more liberal with whom they let adopt.. Why let gay adopts? No advantage of that.. Just disadvantage and unfairness to the children. At least if someone is adopted they should be able to have the right to be adopted into a normal situation, not some insane liberal dreamland situation.

Kal'Stang said:

No whats sad is that you don't want a couple of homosexuals raising a kid just because they are homosexual. Even though it has been shown that kids raised in a normal homosexual home are just as well adjusted as the kids raised in a normal heterosexual home.

And if argueing for the rights of someone is considered being a liberal then fine..label me so. You'd be incorrect but hey...we all have our opinions. At least my opinions are based off of scientific studies and not tradition.

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As well adjusted? How well adjusted people are is immeasurable, they may be so on the surface of things. But then again, those people may be mentally insane because of the way they grew up.
They may have been the victim of bullies at school, whom eventually come blasting at other students with a shotgun(I would say that scenario is more likely as a % of people with gay parents).

There is absolutely no reason for us to let gays adopt, but then again, there is absolutely no way we can control women couples especially from having and raising children.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Maximus, you do two things in these posts:

1) Show that your opinion is based on stereotypical rhetoric, bias, and prejudice, and nothing more.

2) Show that you still have neither answered the question for evidence, and have continued to try to spin the question/issue.

Thus far, you have offered little to debate. Please give us something.

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I showed you the future if the trend continues. I dont want that type of future, I want things to get better, not worse.

Kal'Stang said:

And since you continually state that a mom and a dad is "best" to raise kids in then how about you show us some statistics that show that.

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I am not one of those internet geeks who thinks proof and articles from the internet really means everything. Sometimes, good old common sense and using your own brain just matters far more..

Try thinking about your statement above, for a prolonged period of time...

Then you will come to the same conclusion, its obviously the best for children to grow up with mom/dad combination(on average), if your judgment is not clouded by your "kindness" and "wish to accommodate everybody".

Maximus Zeebra said:

I showed you the future if the trend continues. I dont want that type of future, I want things to get better, not worse.

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You showed us bigotry and prejudice. You are no soothsayer and have offered no information that substantiates "your" future.

I am growing tired of your nonsensical, stereotyped, and unsubstantiated comments. Do you have anything of substance to add, other than your value based opinion?

Maximus Zeebra said:

I am not one of those internet geeks who thinks proof and articles from the internet really means everything. Sometimes, good old common sense and using your own brain just matters far more..

Try thinking about your statement above, for a prolonged period of time...

Then you will come to the same conclusion, its obviously the best for children to grow up with mom/dad combination(on average), if your judgment is not clouded by your "kindness" and "wish to accommodate everybody".

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You have still not answered my question. What is the difference between common sense and common belief?

CaptainCourtesy said:

You showed us bigotry and prejudice. You are no soothsayer and have offered no information that substantiates "your" future.

I am growing tired of your nonsensical, stereotyped, and unsubstantiated comments. Do you have anything of substance to add, other than your value based opinion?

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You have to remember that I lived in Amsterdam for a year. Thats every liberals dream for society to become like that.

Well.. Yes.. You never proved that gays were better parents than straights, you never can, because they aren't. And if they aren't, they can AT BEST be equal, but gays and straight parents are not the same, so the likelihood of them being worse parents is 99%. You never properly answered that either.

Maximus Zeebra said:

You have to remember that I lived in Amsterdam for a year. Thats every liberals dream for society to become like that.

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I've never been to Amsterdam. As you often point out, Europe is quite different from the US. Things work differently, here.

Well.. Yes.. You never proved that gays were better parents than straights, you never can, because they aren't. And if they aren't, they can AT BEST be equal, but gays and straight parents are not the same, so the likelihood of them being worse parents is 99%. You never properly answered that either.

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I never proved it, because I never claimed it. I have proven that gay parents and straight parents are equal in rearing children based on many parameters, such as emotional, academic, social, and sexual functioning. YOU keep making the "better than" argument, one that no one has asserted. Either you are constantly misreading, or you are diverting.

CaptainCourtesy said:

You have still not answered my question. What is the difference between common sense and common belief?

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Wow, you should know.. Dont you?

Let me do an example which you will like...(which will show my non-bias)
Common belief is that God exist, while common sense is the awareness that he (most likely) do not exist.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I never proved it, because I never claimed it. I have proven that gay parents and straight parents are equal in rearing children based on many parameters, such as emotional, academic, social, and sexual functioning. YOU keep making the "better than" argument, one that no one has asserted. Either you are constantly misreading, or you are diverting.

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If they aren't better, then they can AT BEST be equal, and they aren't the same, so they aren't equal, so they are worse.

"emotional, social, academic and sexual", thats just scratching the surface of a human life.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Wow, you should know.. Dont you?

Let me do an example which you will like...(which will show my non-bias)
Common belief is that God exist, while common sense is the awareness that he (most likely) do not exist.

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Poor example because the common sensical part has not been proven...as evidenced by your "most likely" comment. Therefore, both parts are identical. My flat earth example has been proven. Give it another go.

Maximus Zeebra said:

If they aren't better, then they can AT BEST be equal, and they aren't the same, so they aren't equal, so they are worse.

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No, they ARE equal. Your comment above has no logic behind it. You are saying that if two things are equal, one is worse. That's nonsense.

"emotional, social, academic and sexual", thats just scratching the surface of a human life.

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Really? Scratch deeper and tell us more functioning parameters that would need to be explored.

CaptainCourtesy said:

No, they ARE equal. Your comment above has no logic behind it. You are saying that if two things are equal, one is worse. That's nonsense.

Really? Scratch deeper and tell us more functioning parameters that would need to be explored.

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Mental and emotional aspects of a human is immeasurable. Even trying to is just scratching the surface of the two, and the 4 you mention is definetely just scratching the surface of a human life.

I didnt say they were equal btw..

1. Gays are not better parents than straights
2. Gays and straights are NOT THE SAME
3. Therefor they cannot be equal.
4. If they are not better and not equal, they are most likely worse, 99%.

How can you not get that? How can they be equal if they are not the same? Thats like saying men and women are equal, while everyone knows that is a load a crap.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Mental and emotional aspects of a human is immeasurable. Even trying to is just scratching the surface of the two, and the 4 you mention is definetely just scratching the surface of a human life.

I didnt say they were equal btw..

1. Gays are not better parents than straights
2. Gays and straights are NOT THE SAME
3. Therefor they cannot be equal.
4. If they are not better and not equal, they are most likely worse, 99%.

How can you not get that? How can they be equal if they are not the same? Thats like saying men and women are equal, while everyone knows that is a load a crap.

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How in earth does you get to the assumption that 99% of guys would make worse parents than heterosexual couples?

Do you just pull figures out of the air or do you intrinsically known because you have lived in anything goes Amsterdam, and therefore you know better.

Secondly women may be biologically different from men in many ways, and thus not equal in a biological sense, just as guys are not biologically equal in terms of reproduction. But does that mean we bar guys from becoming parents?

Maximus Zeebra said:

You have to remember that I lived in Amsterdam for a year. Thats every liberals dream for society to become like that.

Well.. Yes.. You never proved that gays were better parents than straights, you never can, because they aren't. And if they aren't, they can AT BEST be equal, but gays and straight parents are not the same, so the likelihood of them being worse parents is 99%. You never properly answered that either.

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And the likelihood of them being better is......what? 1%? Can you show where you're getting these numbers from? It stands to reason that if you can not provide ANY evidence to support your claims then the likelihood of gay parents being better or worse then straight parents is 50-50. Meaning it is a case by case issue. Not one defined along percentage points.

Maximus Zeebra said:

The day when transexuals are in a majority, in homosexual relationships, holding other mens hands in the streets, before they go into a boutique to shoot up on heroin, the store which ofcourse is run by lesbians with children, since men are now obsolete and women just milk them for sperm donations. The wonderful world where the worlds biggest idiot is the president, and the election is rigged and everyone just accepts that, his boyfriend, the dog barky just got married, he had to break up with the necrophiliac John who just stayed inside and played games all day and just rolled over to have legal sex with the dead bodies inbetween.

That day there will no longer be questions about gay people raising children. The next thing to liberalize on then is probably pedophile marriage or something similar.

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I think that CaptainCourtesy has lived up to his avatar and has been far too kind to you. But I am going to say this. What you have written is just waffle. It is based on stereotypes, bigotry.

You can't even back up your claims with empirical evidence, that actually shows that; homosexuals that are willing to adopt are more likely to take heroin. You can't even find empirical evidence to suggest that lesbians will make men obsolete.

Next you confuse consential sexuality with necrophilia. Which by its very definition cannot be consensual. And yet it says so much more about you than other people.

And the comments about lesbians making women obsolete.... Where does that come from?:roll:

I'll put it this way. The conservative's argument that the family is the heart of civilization, and that civilization will fall apart without it is utter tosh. Children have grown up with abusive HETEROSEXUAL parents, children lose HETEROSEXUAL parents to disease and war, yet they grow and become members of society, since the beginning of civilization.

Some will be traumatized by the experience others will not, but life goes on. The idea that nuclear family holds society together, and that preventing homosexuals from adopting or having kids is somehow going to save humanity; ignores the disgusting abuse SOME children face from their own parents. The Family as the heart of civilization is nothing more than romantic fantasy. A rose tinted view... A sanitized, clean world....

So I ask you this how on earth can 99% of gays be worse parents that heterosexual parents? I dare you to back this claim up with empirical evidence and not just your opinion dressed up as the reality of the world.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Well.. Yes.. You never proved that gays were better parents than straights, you never can, because they aren't. And if they aren't, they can AT BEST be equal, but gays and straight parents are not the same, so the likelihood of them being worse parents is 99%. You never properly answered that either.

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Likewise you can never prove that straight parents are better than gays. AT BEST straight parents can be equal.

I see no reason to think that straight couples would be better at raising children. The current evidence seems to indicate that same-sex couples are just as good. It's a shame that too many bigots try to prevent kids from having homes because they don't like homosexuality.

Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids

APA Policy Statement on Sexual Orientation, Parents, & Children

Australianlibertarian said:

How in earth does you get to the assumption that 99% of guys would make worse parents than heterosexual couples?

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Thats not what I wrote.. How many times to I have to repeat it.. If they are not better parents, then they can at best be equal, but they definetely arent the same as straight parents, and if they are not the same or better, then there should be a 99% chance they are worse, on average.

Australianlibertarian said:

Do you just pull figures out of the air or do you intrinsically known because you have lived in anything goes Amsterdam, and therefore you know better.

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You really do not want the west to become like Amsterdam.. I dont believe that, dont buy it.. It will if we continue down this path. I have seen the results of extreme liberalism, and its nothing that I want to see everywhere.

Australianlibertarian said:

Secondly women may be biologically different from men in many ways, and thus not equal in a biological sense, just as guys are not biologically equal in terms of reproduction. But does that mean we bar guys from becoming parents?

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Did anyone say that? I never said that at least.. I never even hinted at anything remotely close to that.

CaptainCourtesy said:

No, they ARE equal. Your comment above has no logic behind it. You are saying that if two things are equal, one is worse. That's nonsense.

Really? Scratch deeper and tell us more functioning parameters that would need to be explored.

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I think when it comes to adoption, fostering, etc. they probably are equal when you're comparing stable homes and stable relationships.

However when you get into gays and lesbians having their own biological children with a partner unless both biological parents are somehow involved in the upbringing of the child things can never be equal. Nobody wants a sperm donor father and nobody desires a surrogate mother. Whenever either biological parent is completely absent from a child's life there are some repercussions. There will always be some form of an emotional hole as the child ages and realizes that one of their biological parents is completely absent.

So I'm all for allowing gays and lesbians to adopt. But when it comes to creating their own children I heavily advocate that they find a biological parent who wants to be involved with the couple on some level so the child never has that missing piece emotional hole. Lesbians can do a great job raising a kid but they will do a far better job if they utilize and support the active involvement of the man who biologically fathered the child. Likewise with gays. It may be far more convenient to create a child with someone who will opt out of their parenting rights but it's a selfish practice that diminishes and makes light of every little child's need to feel loved by the two adults that created him or her.

Kal'Stang said:

*takes a look around for any proof that heterosexuals are better at raising kids than homosexuals*

.
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.
.
.
.
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*sees none, chuckles and leaves*

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How about 10000 years for an example?

Maximus Zeebra said:

Thats not what I wrote.. How many times to I have to repeat it.. If they are not better parents, then they can at best be equal, but they definetely arent the same as straight parents, and if they are not the same or better, then there should be a 99% chance they are worse, on average.



You really do not want the west to become like Amsterdam.. I dont believe that, dont buy it.. It will if we continue down this path. I have seen the results of extreme liberalism, and its nothing that I want to see everywhere.




Did anyone say that? I never said that at least.. I never even hinted at anything remotely close to that.

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I'll make this very F***ing simple. Where do you get the assumption that there is a 99% chance that gays will be worse parents. Stop dodging the question.

Granted logic dictates that if gays are not better or equal to heterosexuals than by reason they would be worse then heterosexual couples. But this rational is simplistic and you know it.

If we were to plot parenting skills it would not be in some sort of tick the box, but rather a standard curve.

Thus your reasoning completely fails. It assumes that ALL homosexuals would have an equaldistribution of parenting skills. Your assumption does not taken into account the individual. But that make sense considering that your are not focusing on the individual, but rather a very wide range of people...... Thus you do not make any allowance that some heterosexual parents are crap parents and some homosexuals could make excellent parents. You over simplify things and compare two different sexualites against each other without making allowances for varying abilities of people, regardless of sex.

Maximus Zeebra said:

How about 10000 years for an example?

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That might be valid if you could prove that not one single homosexual ever raised a kid during the last 10,000 years, and didn't raise them just as good as a heterosexual.

GL with that.

Edit note: made a clairification.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Thats not what I wrote.. How many times to I have to repeat it.. If they are not better parents, then they can at best be equal, but they definetely arent the same as straight parents, and if they are not the same or better, then there should be a 99% chance they are worse, on average.

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Here is the lack of logic in your argument. Prove that if something is not the same or better that it then must be worse. Try this for example. Apples are not better than oranges. They are equal to oranges. They, however, are not the same as oranges. Therefore, there is a 99% chance that they are worse than oranges.

See how idiotic and illogical your theory sounds? Unless you can prove your above equation...which like your position that heterosexuals make better parents than homosexuals, you have offered zero proof of, your "theory" is just more spin and opinion. Nothing more.

You really do not want the west to become like Amsterdam.. I dont believe that, dont buy it.. It will if we continue down this path. I have seen the results of extreme liberalism, and its nothing that I want to see everywhere.

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Slippery slope logical fallacy. Point negated.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Mental and emotional aspects of a human is immeasurable. Even trying to is just scratching the surface of the two, and the 4 you mention is definetely just scratching the surface of a human life.

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And yet when I asked you to name others, you didn't. Same old same old. Maximus. When asked for proof, you run and hide.

I didnt say they were equal btw..

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OK

1. Gays are not better parents than straights

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True. And apples are not better fruits than oranges.

2. Gays and straights are NOT THE SAME

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True. Apples are different from oranges.

3. Therefor they cannot be equal.

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No. They are not the same. This is a different concept than equal. Prove that they cannot be equal. I have already proven that gay and straight parents are equal. You have offered nothing to disprove that.

4. If they are not better and not equal, they are most likely worse, 99%.

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This is based on a false premise; two things CAN be equal and not the same. Apples and oranges. Your theory is illogical and has been debunked. I hope you have something more, because so far, you've shown nothing.

How can you not get that? How can they be equal if they are not the same? Thats like saying men and women are equal, while everyone knows that is a load a crap.

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Men and women are not the same. Equal is a different concept. You need to give a context when you are discussing "equal" here. Do you mean intelligence?