View Poll Results: What percentage are actual libertarians?

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Thread: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

  1. #11
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    there are four kinds of libertarians:

    Secret Republicans: Libertarians that are libertarian until it violates some sacred Republican principle, usually drugs or Israel

    Psychos: Compound dwelling heavily armed blackhelicoptertarians

    College libertarians: Liberals that like to be faux-intellectual and contrarian with all their Democrat voting friends

    Pauligans: Ron Paul cultists.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

  2. #12
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Ok, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, but you seem to be a perfect example of what I was just illustrating by the poll.

    Its a libertarian party platform that the right to privacy is absolute. They are against even social security numbers because of it.

    But really, if you have not made an authoritarian statement then I don't know what is one. The constitution does not grant rights to the people. The constitutional restricts the powers of government. You have a constitutional right to privacy because no where in the constitution is the government given the authority to restrict your right to privacy. In fact, there was a lot of debate among the founders because there was a concern that if they included a bill of rights that someone would come along some day and actually think they were the only rights individuals had.
    I was mostly responding to your phrasing. I agree with what your expanded explanation on the restricted claims to Federal Authority as documented by the Constitution. We could anchor the discussion in theory or in reality. In theory much of the way society is structured in in violation of Constitutional principles, but in reality I can't foresee undoing what has been built up over the years and starting from scratch, so libertarian principles have to be tempered by the constraints of the environment. I'm happy to engage on both the theoretical and the realist level so long as we all know what the boundaries of the discussion are so that I don't get fired upon for having theoretical failings when I'm discussing realist positions.

    BTW, I have no problem with you using me as an example, but my politics, informed by my work as a geneticist, is pretty unique and doesn't fall anywhere near the median of conservatism or libertarianism, but when forced to choose, libertarianism is the closest label available.

  3. #13
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    there are four kinds of libertarians:

    Secret Republicans: Libertarians that are libertarian until it violates some sacred Republican principle, usually drugs or Israel

    Psychos: Compound dwelling heavily armed blackhelicoptertarians

    College libertarians: Liberals that like to be faux-intellectual and contrarian with all their Democrat voting friends

    Pauligans: Ron Paul cultists.
    We can always count on you to come into any thread about libertarianism and offer up your insults at us without adding anything to the discussion.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #14
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We can always count on you to come into any thread about libertarianism and offer up your insults at us without adding anything to the discussion.
    It was kind of funny though.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  5. #15
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Once again an authoritarian statement. The most fundamental principle of liberty is that your right to live your life the way you choose to do so goes so far as to not impede another individuals ability to do the same. The notion that its ok to restrict the freedoms of one group because by granting that group those freedoms it could be argued that a less desirable group might then be able to obtain them as well is an authoritarian argument.
    These matters are not so cut and dried. We're dealing with a society which has taken a cultural practice, marriage, and embedded it within the law and has directed legal and tax benefits be attached to the practice. If you want to separate custom from government control, then I have no problem with a strict libertarian approach to marriage and unhindered freedom. The problem is that we're not dealing with a strict theoretical approach here. The government redistributes benefits from one class of people, singles, to another class of people, marrieds. Now, with this being the case, the pure principles have to be muddied. So, the slippery slope argument, which was the point of my comment, is indeed quite a valid argument when the Gay Agenda has documented history of using the slippery slope argument to advance towards its goals. It's entirely legitimate to use the same tactic in response to evidence of the other side using the tactic.

  6. #16
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    It was kind of funny though.
    Not on the 100th time hearing it. We could just get a bot to replace NCFW's responses in libertarian threads.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #17
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    These matters are not so cut and dried. We're dealing with a society which has taken a cultural practice, marriage, and embedded it within the law and has directed legal and tax benefits be attached to the practice. If you want to separate custom from government control, then I have no problem with a strict libertarian approach to marriage and unhindered freedom. The problem is that we're not dealing with a strict theoretical approach here. The government redistributes benefits from one class of people, singles, to another class of people, marrieds. Now, with this being the case, the pure principles have to be muddied. So, the slippery slope argument, which was the point of my comment, is indeed quite a valid argument when the Gay Agenda has documented history of using the slippery slope argument to advance towards its goals. It's entirely legitimate to use the same tactic in response to evidence of the other side using the tactic.
    The actual solution is to abolish the marriage license. Most everything you can get through marriage can be handled with separate contract. Also, there should be no tax benefits for getting married. Hurray for you, you're married. But you're still using the same amount of stuff and public resources as you were before so you shouldn't have your tax burden reduced over that of single people. Also, the child credit of 3000 per child with no saturation should be done away with as well. Especially considering families with children on the whole use more public services than single people.

    Regardless, nix the marriage license and return it to the Church solely. I don't see why you need the government's permission to be married anyway. But if we keep it the way it is as a State issued and recognized contract, then there is no basis by which you can keep same sex couples out as contract is an inherent right.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #18
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Also, there should be no tax benefits for getting married. Hurray for you, you're married. But you're still using the same amount of stuff and public resources as you were before so you shouldn't have your tax burden reduced over that of single people.
    That's a philosophical position, and to me at least, the position is dependent on the societal environment. Right now we live in a society where the state is quite intrusive in people's lives, and these intrusions distort behavior. That being the case, the state has a compelling interest to encourage family formation, the production of a new generation of citizens, etc.

    Also, the child credit of 3000 per child with no saturation should be done away with as well. Especially considering families with children on the whole use more public services than single people.
    If we lived in a society characterized by a minimalist state, then I'd agree with you. However, the situation right now is quite different and the costs of raising children have been privatized while the benefits have been socialized, so a tax credit is only a very minor attempt to address this STATE-CREATED inequality.

    But if we keep it the way it is as a State issued and recognized contract, then there is no basis by which you can keep same sex couples out as contract is an inherent right.
    Similarly there is no reason not to confer benefits on two best friends, a father and a daughter, a brother and a sister, a man and 3 women, etc.

    The libertarian position that no instance of discrimination is an unqualified virtue is laughable.

  9. #19
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    These matters are not so cut and dried. We're dealing with a society which has taken a cultural practice, marriage, and embedded it within the law and has directed legal and tax benefits be attached to the practice. If you want to separate custom from government control, then I have no problem with a strict libertarian approach to marriage and unhindered freedom. The problem is that we're not dealing with a strict theoretical approach here. The government redistributes benefits from one class of people, singles, to another class of people, marrieds. Now, with this being the case, the pure principles have to be muddied. So, the slippery slope argument, which was the point of my comment, is indeed quite a valid argument when the Gay Agenda has documented history of using the slippery slope argument to advance towards its goals. It's entirely legitimate to use the same tactic in response to evidence of the other side using the tactic.
    From a purely pragmatic perspective though, in order to deny the privilege of government recognized marriage to a group, then you have to demonstrate how granting them that right / privilege impedes the rights of others. You can't argue that by giving them that privilege, they may try to use it to get another privilege you don't want them to have.

    I might add, that social conservatives know this. They know they will eventually not prevail in the courts on this issue because of that. Thus they are trying to get a constitutional amendment restricting the privilege.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 02-20-09 at 06:18 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #20
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    Re: What percentage of people that claim to be Libertarians are actual Libertarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Ok, a lot of people claim they are Libertarian, but when you talk to them it seems like most of them are really just typical Republicans that call themselves libertarian because they think it sounds cool or something. You know like they are libertarian because they like low taxes and want few restrictions on gun ownership, but they are also pro big military, don't believe in a constitutional right to privacy, support various attempts at legislating morality and so on.

    So what percentage of people that claim to be libertarian do you think are actually libertarian?

    Just like there are different schools of though with Liberalism and conservatism, there are different schools of thought with Libertarianism. There is a Libertarian left and right and there is also Paleolibertarianism. Because on my views on abortion, gay marriage and the death penalty I consider myself a combination of left and right Libertarianism. Paleolibertarians in my opinion are just Paleoconservatives who support free trade.

    Left-libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Paleolibertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Right-libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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