View Poll Results: Do you think downloading movies and other content should be illegal?

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    14 25.93%
  • No

    33 61.11%
  • Not sure

    2 3.70%
  • Other (explain)

    5 9.26%
Page 24 of 27 FirstFirst ... 142223242526 ... LastLast
Results 231 to 240 of 264

Thread: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

  1. #231
    User Defensor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last Seen
    04-21-09 @ 07:34 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    144

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, you don't have beat them simply to profit off someone else's work. Face it. You're a leech. A parasite.
    People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything?

    See, you're simply showing your contempt here.

    And demonstrate, please, which you have never done, exactly HOW, if I write and record a song, I've "monopolized" the creation and sales of music?

    Show it.
    "Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

    Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly?

    Show me passages on property rights and how intellectual property is excluded. Also, show me the enforcement division.
    What? You want Bible passages on IP?

    No. I'm saying that what you THINK is "your property" isn't. You can scream all day that it is; it won't make it so.

    You don't actually know that much about property, even the Western concept of it, do you?

    I think you should look up the term "fee simple determinable."

    A "sale" entails exactly what is in the sales contract.

    Yes. Except it's not your property.
    In the Bizzaro World of "intellectual property," the content on a CD that I forked over hard-earned money for is not my property at all, but the abstract idea that the original producer still exclusively owns the "rights" to what is on my CD is enforceable by law. Truly insane; a total violation of property rights and freedom of contract.

    There's nothing ideal about anarchy. Under it, your "rights" are defined exactly by the extent to which you or your faction are able to withstand assault from another faction. There is no higher authority than brute force.
    Sounds like the definition of government.

    (It's typically the realization of that point where the mature mind abandons the idea of anarchy.)
    The mature mind knows that allowing the free market to operate is the ideal. Only the juvenile hold onto the naïve hope that government can save them from their woes.

    There's nothing "socialist" about intellectual property in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it's YOU who argue that intellectual property is public property, so that makes YOU the socialist.
    Actually its mercantilist, but since "socialism" seems to be used for any government intervention these days it certainly applies here.

    Either way, "intellectual property" is 100% entirely incompatible with a free market capitalist system.


    As I said, only appeals to false authority are invalid. But you appeal to "nature" or "God" as your authority.

    So, show me the clauses of God's or nature's law which show you to be correct. Let's see it.
    Really, when did I ever appeal to authority?

    I argue right and wrong. Thus far your side has done nothing but appeal to government and established precedent in a vain attempt to shut down all discussion.

    And any appeal to authority as proof that something is right is a logical fallacy.

  2. #232
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:36 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    21,972

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Defensor View Post
    People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything?
    My GOD, what a strawman. Show me where I've said anything remotely of the kind.

    "Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

    Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly?
    By that argument, anyone who owns a shop has a monopoly, because no one else is allowed to profit from that shop. Even though there are hundreds of thousands of shops and no shop owner is keeping someone else from opening one.

    In the real world, control over one song is by no rational means a "monopoly."

    And if Coca-Cola doesn't want KFC to sell their product, then too bad -- KFC doesn't get to sell Coca-Cola.

    What? You want Bible passages on IP?
    I'm not the one appealing to "nature" or "God" as my authority. You're stating in absolutes that what you say is true. Prove it. Show me "the law."



    In the Bizzaro World of "intellectual property," the content on a CD that I forked over hard-earned money for is not my property at all, but the abstract idea that the original producer still exclusively owns the "rights" to what is on my CD is enforceable by law. Truly insane; a total violation of property rights
    Again, show me this enumeration of rights. Let's see it.


    and freedom of contract.
    Nope. It is EXACTLY freedom of contract. If you want ownership over a song, buy one from someone who's willing to sell you those rights. No one is obliged to do so, under freedom of contract.

    Or is "freedom of contract" only so when it's under terms favorable to you?


    Sounds like the definition of government.
    Yet, it's an accurate description of anarchy. Go figure.


    The mature mind knows that allowing the free market to operate is the ideal. Only the juvenile hold onto the naïve hope that government can save them from their woes.
    Well, good luck when the bigger robber band comes to divest you of all that you hold dear. I'm sure your wailing about how it's "your property" will get you really far.


    Actually its mercantilist, but since "socialism" seems to be used for any government intervention these days it certainly applies here.
    You seek to make the fruits of someone's labor public property.


    Either way, "intellectual property" is 100% entirely incompatible with a free market capitalist system.
    You keep saying it, but it still isn't so.


    Really, when did I ever appeal to authority?
    You keep appealing to "property rights" as though there's an absolute authority on what those are.


    I argue right and wrong.
    So do I. It's wrong to leech off the fruits of others' labor.


    Thus far your side has done nothing but appeal to government and established precedent
    And you've appealed to thin air.

    in a vain attempt to shut down all discussion.
    Oh, waaah, waah, waah, waah. We don't agree with you or accept your arrogant proclamations as The Truth, so we're attempting to "shut down all discussion." What a baby.


    And any appeal to authority as proof that something is right is a logical fallacy.
    Not when the authority is what actually defines a thing. You do the same by appealing to "nature" or "God." Of course, you've never actually shown the enumeration of what you claim are rights, so . . .
    Last edited by Harshaw; 02-17-09 at 01:22 PM.
    2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
    2009-2016: Dissent is the highest form of racism.
    2017-? (Probably): Dissent is the highest form of misogyny.

  3. #233
    User Defensor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last Seen
    04-21-09 @ 07:34 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    144

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    My GOD, what a strawman. Show me where I've said anything remotely of the kind.
    Direct response to your quote complaining that people are able to profit on others' work.

    By that argument, anyone who owns a shop has a monopoly, because no one else is allowed to profit from that shop. Even though there are hundreds of thousands of shops and no shop owner is keeping someone else from opening one.
    Sorry, no, analogy doesn't work. What is it with you people and making up ridiculous comparisons that don't even make sense?

    In the real world, control over one song is by no rational means a "monopoly."
    It is, by definition, a monopoly. Whether you choose to accept it or not is inconsequential.

    And if Coca-Cola doesn't want KFC to sell their product, then too bad -- KFC doesn't get to sell Coca-Cola.
    And if KFC wants to produce their own cola to compete with Coca-Cola, there is no problem there. Another faulty analogy from you.

    I'm not the one appealing to "nature" or "God" as my authority. You're stating in absolutes that what you say is true. Prove it. Show me "the law."
    So you're going to stop appealing to authority? Thank you, since I have never done so in this thread.


    Again, show me this enumeration of rights. Let's see it.



    Nope. It is EXACTLY freedom of contract. If you want ownership over a song, buy one from someone who's willing to sell you those rights. No one is obliged to do so, under freedom of contract.
    Freedom of contract would allow me to sell CDs that I own to a willing buyer without interference from the state.


    Yet, it's an accurate description of anarchy. Go figure.
    Hardly, government is merely a monopoly on force.


    Well, good luck when the bigger robber band comes to divest you of all that you hold dear. I'm sure your wailing about how it's "your property" will get you really far.
    Huh?


    You seek to make the fruits of someone's labor public property.
    Another straw man. I have never sought to do that.


    Not when the authority is what actually defines a thing. You do the same by appealing to "nature" or "God." Of course, you've never actually shown the enumeration of what you claim are rights, so . . .
    Of course, I've never actually appealed to authority at all in this thread.

  4. #234
    Student Captain Obvious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    02-25-09 @ 10:26 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    155

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Defensor View Post
    People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything? As long as the owner of the rights to that intellectual property has made his or her appropriate cut on the initial sale to the seller you're suggesting and that the subsequent sale is legit, then ok - but I doubt that's what you're getting at. What you're probably referring to is the illegal copying, selling or otherwise distributing of illegal copies.


    "Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

    Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly? While I highly doubt it, but I'll ask - do you own a car? If so, then you have a monopoly on that car. Same concept.
    I was going to comment on the rest, but it's just too absurd to even waste another minute on.
    Caucasian male - the new minority
    Fiscally conservative, socially moderate.

  5. #235
    Hi
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-28-16 @ 03:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    26,288

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    I was going to comment on the rest, but it's just too absurd to even waste another minute on.
    I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

    The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
    I'm thinking more of the technical evolution as well as human evolution.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #236
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 12:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

    The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
    "The Free Flow of Information" doesn't in any was necessarily trump intellectual property rights.

  7. #237
    Student Captain Obvious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    02-25-09 @ 10:26 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    155

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

    The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
    I'm thinking more of the technical evolution as well as human evolution.
    Alright, I'm jumping in here after a break from all the nonsense.

    By "free flow of information", or more specifically - information, do you mean to differentiate between 'information' and 'property'?

    Getting back on track here, we're not talking about information per se, we're talking about intellectual property rights (which may include "information").
    Caucasian male - the new minority
    Fiscally conservative, socially moderate.

  8. #238
    Hi
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-28-16 @ 03:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    26,288

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    "The Free Flow of Information" doesn't in any was necessarily trump intellectual property rights.
    Your right. What I mean is that Microsoft in reality is a terrible OS.

    There is lots of potential for outside individuals to adapt, repair, and upgrade it.

    There are modified versions available for free on the net and it violates their IPR.
    (This isn't a hate microsoft thing I'm just using it to make a point)
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #239
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:36 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    21,972

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Defensor View Post
    Direct response to your quote complaining that people are able to profit on others' work.
    And an idiotic one, legitimately inferred by NOTHING I said.


    Sorry, no, analogy doesn't work. What is it with you people and making up ridiculous comparisons that don't even make sense?
    Sure it does. Owning one song is like owning one shop.


    It is, by definition, a monopoly. Whether you choose to accept it or not is inconsequential.
    Right. Having control over ONE song among millions is a monopoly. Riiiight.


    And if KFC wants to produce their own cola to compete with Coca-Cola, there is no problem there. Another faulty analogy from you.
    No, actually, it's a perfectly legitimate analogy, and you yourself just demonstrated exactly why.

    No owner of a song is stopping anyone else from creating their own songs and competing, just like Coca-Cola can't stop anyone else from creating their own cola.

    Thus, my analogy works perfectly. Thanks for pointing out how.

    Besides, Mr. Unfettered Capitalism -- what have you got against monopolies?


    So you're going to stop appealing to authority? Thank you, since I have never done so in this thread.
    Certainly you have. You've appealed to "Western concepts" and "natural law" or whatever you choose to say it.

    You say it's the Way Things Are. Prove it.


    Freedom of contract would allow me to sell CDs that I own to a willing buyer without interference from the state.
    Not if the seller exercises his freedom of contract and includes provision which doesn't permit it. You're free to take those terms or leave them. When you buy a CD, you're taking them. You've made a free choice. Whining about it doesn't change it.


    Hardly, government is merely a monopoly on force.
    So? It's the force which protects your precious property "rights."


    Huh?
    Try to keep up.


    Another straw man. I have never sought to do that.
    Sure you do -- by denying the concept of the property right altogether.



    Of course, I've never actually appealed to authority at all in this thread.
    Well, you have not in the sense that you've yet to show how "rights" are enumerated in the way you claim.

    But you certainly have appealed to "nature" or "God," as I pointed out above.

    You're simply making things up the way you prefer them to be. If you are not, show it.

    By the way, if I make the claim that the English defeated the Spanish Armada in 1588, and then cite a slew of history books as proof, that is an appeal to authority, because I have no firsthand knowledge of it. But it's a legitimate appeal to authority, because there's no other means of proof. Therefore, you have it conceptually wrong.

    Not that you haven't all the way through this.

    If you want a false appeal to authority, I'll give you this -- you claim that what you say is the absolute truth, yet you've offered nothing other than your proclamation of it as evidence. You are a false authority.

    So, now's the time -- put up. Show your case to be irrefutably true.

    If you won't or can't, there's not much point in wasting any further energy on this, because you've got nothing.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 02-17-09 at 01:56 PM.
    2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
    2009-2016: Dissent is the highest form of racism.
    2017-? (Probably): Dissent is the highest form of misogyny.

  10. #240
    Hi
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-28-16 @ 03:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    26,288

    Re: Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    Alright, I'm jumping in here after a break from all the nonsense.

    By "free flow of information", or more specifically - information, do you mean to differentiate between 'information' and 'property'?

    Getting back on track here, we're not talking about information per se, we're talking about intellectual property rights (which may include "information").
    If someone holds IPR to a work and you can improve upon it, it is very difficult to do so when the holder won't let you.

    Look at all the Linux distributions available and the quality they carry with them.

    It all started from the original IPR holder releasing it to the public.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

Page 24 of 27 FirstFirst ... 142223242526 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •