If you are fighting...

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
looks like the Oxford English dictionary disagrees with you on 2 points:
1) Mujahadeen is spelled Mujahideen
2) Mujahideen refers to EVERY muslim taking part in the Jihad, not only to the ones in Afghanistan

Wow. This is -disgustingly- desperate.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
and stop it with the personnal attacks

None of those are personal attacks.
they describe your arguments and your ability to argue honestly.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
And, as I said:
Its doesnt matter who calls someone a freedom fighter, if they aren't.
So, your point here is meaningless.

If you don't accept it when people disagree with you, next time put only one option to your poll

And, as you have been told, the Mujahadeen are not the "jihadists" of the Taliban. So, again, your point here is meaningless.

what does that mean?

More ignorance on your part. The Mujahadeen that fought the Soviets fought to drive out the Soviets, not to "introduce the Sharia in Afghanistan"

and what kind of political regime do you expect JIHADISTS to support? Democracy? No, guess what, they called their state "Islamic state of Afghanistan" :shock:

It doesn't matter how big you write -- you're still wrong.

It's funny to see you skip the parts that defeat you so much that even by spinning a lot you can't give the illusion not to be defeated: "let's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both) => what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies?"

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
Wow. I admit I'm totally wrong

I knew you could do it :applaud

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
I knew you could do it :applaud

How juvenile.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
How juvenile.

I hesitated with quoting that post instead:

Hatuey said:
Goobieman is just sore from all the beatings I've give him. Pay him no mind bub. He's like a deer in front of headlights when he finally meets up with the words logic and consistency.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
If you don't accept it when people disagree with you, next time put only one option to your poll

I accept the idea that people may argue that someone that fights for a murderous, oppressive theocracy are, indeed, fighting for actual freedom.

Holding that position and supporting that position are entirely different things.

YOU have not been able to support that position in any way shape or form.

and what kind of political regime do you expect JIHADISTS to support?

There you go, arguing w/o any basis whatsoever that the Mujahaneed were Jihasists...

It's funny to see you skip the parts that defeat you...

When you see any of those parts, let me know.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
I hesitated with quoting that post instead:

Funny... I thought she was describing you.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
Funny... I thought she was describing you.

let me raise some points:

1)

this symbol refers to males

2) The words "Jihasist" and "Mujahadeen" do not exist

3) Yes, Mujahideen are Jihadists. In fact, Mujahideen is arabic for Jihadist.

4) You skipped that part again: ""let's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both) => what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies?" "

Is there a problem with your screen or your keyboard??

Infinite Chaos · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
"Mujahideen" --snip-- "Taliban"

bub, this page may help.

BBC: Who are the Taleban

Islamic law

The Taleban first came to prominence in the autumn of 1994.

Their leader was a village clergyman, Mullah Mohammad Omar, who lost his right eye fighting the occupying forces of the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

Their target was the feuding warlords known as the mujahideen who had forced Soviet troops out of the country.

The Taleban's promise was to restore peace and security and enforce Sharia, or Islamic law, once in power.

Afghans, weary of the mujahideen's excesses and infighting, generally welcomed the Taleban.

The rest of the page is useful reading too.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
let me raise some points:

Maybe this time they will be useful and meaningfull!

1) this symbol refers to males

Strike one.

2) The words "Jihasist" and "Mujahadeen" do not exist

Strike two

3) Yes, Mujahideen are Jihadists. In fact, Mujahideen is arabic for Jihadist.

Strike three

You know what that means, right?

Tucker Case · Feb 11, 2009

Infinite Chaos said:
bub, this page may help.

BBC: Who are the Taleban

The rest of the page is useful reading too.

I guess one could ask if the Mujahideen did not fight for freedom, but instead fought top instill a system of fueding wardlords, could they be correctly labelled as "freedom fighters"?

P.S. Bub, as many people have already said, the Taliban are not the same as the Mujahideen in this context. It's best to just let it go, bro.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

Infinite Chaos said:
bub, this page may help.

The rest of the page is useful reading too.

None of this will convice him that the Mujahadeen and Taliban are not the same organization.

First Thought · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
None of this will convice him that the Mujahadeen and Taliban are not the same organization.

Just like no amount of logic will sway you from the silly notions you have entrenched yourself in? How ironic.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

EgoffTib said:
Just like no amount of logic will sway you from the silly notions you have entrenched yourself in? How ironic.

Not that -you- have been able to illustrate any such thing...

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Infinite Chaos said:
bub, this page may help.

BBC: Who are the Taleban

The rest of the page is useful reading too.

thanks, but the article does not use the word "Mujahideen" correctly: "Mujahideen" means "Jihadist", and Talibans, who are fighting to introduce the Sharia, are merely a radical group coming from what the article calls "Mujahideen" (the Mujahideens who fought against USSR) and who fought against the ones who became warlords

But again, that is not the point. The point is that there is no reason to call the Mujahideens who fought against USSR "freedom fighters" and the (also Mujahideens) Talibans who fight against the USA "terrorists"

So please, discuss about the second point, not about wether Talibans are Mujahideens or not

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
But again, that is not the point. The point is that there is no reason to call the Mujahideens who fought against USSR "freedom fighters" and the (also Mujahideens) Talibans who fight against the USA "terrorists"

Even if that's true (and I am trying very hard to not laugh my lunch out my nose when I say that) what does ANY of that have to do with the question in the OP?

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Tucker Case said:
P.S. Bub, as many people have already said, the Taliban are not the same as the Mujahideen in this context. It's best to just let it go, bro.

that's what I try to do but Goobieman refuses to answer this argument (he has skipped it 3 or 4 times):

"let's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both) => what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies"

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
Llet's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both)

Yes. And this means that the Boy Scouts are related to the Nazis, because Hitler was a member of both.

what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies

This is meaningless.
Freedom fighters can be terrorists.
Terrorists can be freedom fighters.
The question isnt the means they use, its what they fight for.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
Even if that's true (and I am trying very hard to not laugh my lunch out my nose when I say that) what does ANY of that have to do with the question in the OP?

It's simple:

1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's

Harshaw · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
It's simple:

1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's

Even if all this were valid, which it is not (you'd fail a basic logic course) . . .

So what? The poll doesn't ask what Reagan said. (That, too, would fail you in a logic course.)

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
It's simple:
1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's

Your argument fails.

1) Factually flawed, as you have been shown so many times.
2) Logically flawed. Being a 'freedom fighter' isnt determined by who refers to you as one.
3) Logically and factually flawed (see 1 and 2)
4) Logically and factually flawed (see 1, 2 and 3).

So, you can answer yes-yes if you want, but your answer is usnound, as demosntrated above.

Now, its up to YOU to scare up the intellectual honesty to admit that, even if just to yourself.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Goobieman said:
Yes. And this means that the Boy Scouts are related to the Nazis, because Hitler was a member of both.

That is a good argument.
However I'll debunk it after this quote:

This is meaningless.
Freedom fighters can be terrorists.
Terrorists can be freedom fighters.
The question isnt the means they use, its what they fight for.

Both Mujahideen and Taliban (who are a kind of Mujahideen according to the Merriam Webster dictionary) are Islamists.

Islamists struggle in order to establish an Islamist state.

The Mujahideens in the 80's have established the "Islamic state of Afghanistan"
The Taliban (who are also Mujahideen) have the same ideology, they fight for the same thing, "though the Taliban subscribed to a particularly narrow interpretation of Islam"

Much of the civil war could be characterized as an ethnic conflict between the Pashtun Taliban, and the non-Pashtun Northern Alliance, since both sides of the conflict espoused fundamentalist Islam.

So, they fight for the same thing, the difference is that Talibans are Pashtun.

Goobieman · Feb 11, 2009

bub said:
That is a good argument.

I know. And, its pretty much the basis for you Mujahadeen = Taliban arugment.

Both Mujahideen and Taliban (who are a kind of Mujahideen according to the Merriam Webster dictionary) are Islamists.

Islamists struggle in order to establish an Islamist state.

The Mujahideens in the 80's have established the "Islamic state of Afghanistan"

Factually and logically flawed, rendering your conclusion unsound.

bub · Feb 11, 2009

Harshaw said:
Even if all this were valid, which it is not (you'd fail a basic logic course) . . . [

Why?

So what? The poll doesn't ask what Reagan said. (That, too, would fail you in a logic course.)

Reagan is just an example to show that the USA & the Western world have supported fundamentalist Islamists and called them "freedom fighters"

That shows that according to those who supported them (= the Western world), you can fight "for the power to create a murderous, oppressive, theocratic government" (fundamental Islamism is about that) and be a "freedom fighter"

If you are fighting...

2-part question. See OP. Please explain your answer.

No - No

No - Yes

Yes - No

Yes - Yes

R.I.P. Léo

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R.I.P. Léo

Matthew 16:3

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R.I.P. Léo

Filmmaker ● Lawyer ● Patriot

R.I.P. Léo

R.I.P. Léo