View Poll Results: 2-part question. See OP. Please explain your answer.

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Thread: If you are fighting...

  1. #41
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Goobieman is just sore from all the beatings I've give him. Pay him no mind bub. He's like a deer in front of headlights when he finally meets up with the words logic and consistency.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #42
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As noted before, if they are fighting for the power to oppress and murder, their present situation isnt relevant to them not fighting for freedom.
    Let's clear this up. Which definition of freedom are you using? (From Webster's)

    Main Entry: free·dom
    Pronunciation: \ˈfrē-dəm\
    Function: noun
    Date: before 12th century
    1: the quality or state of being free: as a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence c: the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d: ease , facility <spoke the language with freedom> e: the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f: improper familiarity g: boldness of conception or execution h: unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
    2 a: a political right b: franchise , privilege

    Al these definitions of Freedom appear to be relative to the individual, not the group.

    If the person doing the fihgting is under "The power of another", under "constraint of choice or action" or being denied a "political right", then they are, by definition, freedom fighters. They are seeking freedom.

    What they want to do to otehrs is what is irrelevant. There are no definitions of freedom that RELATE to others.

    Let's say, hypothetically, that a group that is currently oppressed seeks to overthrow a government and institute a new oppresive regime that just oppresses different people than the old one. Now, let's say they want to oppress the members of the current regime. In that case, what is really happening is two separate groups of freedom fighters in opposition to each other. One that is currently in power must fight for it's freedom from the other group that it is subjugating.

    The subjugated groups is also fighting for their own freedom against the oppresive regime that currently exists.

    In essence, freedom fighters only fight for their own freedom. Only mercenaries and invaders fight for other people's freedom.

    But simply being a freedom fighter does not make the person "good". They might be evil bastards.


    Now, if a fighter is not oppressed, but seeks to over throw the government in order to create a regime of oppression, then they are never "freedom" fighters. They are already free.

    An example would be if a group of people, such as the color-blind, decided to organize a military group that sought to overthrouw the US government and put in it's place a society that was oppresive to those with normal color-vision.

    They could not be classified as "freedom fighters" because the color-blind are just as free as everyone else in our society.


    If you want to make that argument, go ahead; doing so doesnt invalidate the poistion that to be an actual freedom fighter, you have to be fighting for actual freedom.
    And if a person is fighting for their own freedom from an oppresive regime, that is what they are doing.

    Freedom fighters don't need to fight for a "free-society", they just need to fight for a society where they themselves are free while they themselves are curently not free.
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  3. #43
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The question asks if fighting for that specific power is, indeed, fighting for freedom.
    If that is the sole reason that they are fighting, then, no, they cannot possibly be fighting for freedom.
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  4. #44
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Which definition of freedom are you using?
    see post number #2. Goobieman doesn't wish to "play."
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3227&dateline=1247527  127

  5. #45
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by niftydrifty View Post
    see post number #2. Goobieman doesn't wish to "play."
    He seems to have clarified a bit, though, nifty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The question asks if fighting for that specific power is, indeed, fighting for freedom.

    In that case, they are fighting for the specific reason of creating said regime. It is not to gain their own freedom and then establish such a regime.

    If the only reason a group is fighting is to create an oppresive regime (i.e. they are not currently oppressed themselves) then they cannot be freedom fighters.

    I was posting the longer response while he posted that one. To me, under those conditions, the answer is "no-no".
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  6. #46
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Let's clear this up. Which definition of freedom are you using? (From Webster's)
    How about this:
    "Freedom" is the societal and political condition -you- must enjoy in order for you, yourself, to be able to call youself a free person.

    I dont mean what you would call it if you were a member of the Taliban or a Ba'athist, or a Nazi, but what you, personally, right now, call it.

    Now, I dont want to actually speak for you, but I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that at least part of that definition invloves a societal and poitical structure containing popular self-detemination, the plenary ability of people to act as they please so long as they do not infringe on others, and the knowledge that you are safe from capricious and arbitrary acts against you by the government.

    Note that this, specifically, as it is on the societal level, is relvant to the group, as well as the individuals in that group.

    If the person doing the fihgting is under "The power of another", under "constraint of choice or action" or being denied a "political right", then they are, by definition, freedom fighters. They are seeking freedom.

    What they want to do to otehrs is what is irrelevant. There are no definitions of freedom that RELATE to others.
    See above. Fighting to gain power to do what YOU want isn't in any way necessarily fighting for freedom.

    The subjugated groups is also fighting for their own freedom against the oppresive regime that currently exists.
    No. Both fight for power, and nothng more.

    Freedom fighters don't need to fight for a "free-society", they just need to fight for a society where they themselves are free while they themselves are curently not free.
    Again, this is fighting for personal power, not freedom.

  7. #47
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    How about this:
    "Freedom" is the societal and political condition -you- must enjoy in order for you, yourself, to be able to call youself a free person.

    I dont mean what you would call it if you were a member of the Taliban or a Ba'athist, or a Nazi, but what you, personally, right now, call it.
    I think I've got it now. But just to be clear, basically, you are asking how I would feel if I were part of the society that these people were fighting to gain power in knowing I would be in the oppressed population if these people gained control.

    Is that a fair interpretation?

    Now, I dont want to actually speak for you, but I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that at least part of that definition invloves a societal and poitical structure containing popular self-detemination, the plenary ability of people to act as they please so long as they do not infringe on others, and the knowledge that you are safe from capricious and arbitrary acts against you by the government.
    My personal views are very much in line with this.
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  8. #48
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I think I've got it now. But just to be clear, basically, you are asking how I would feel if I were part of the society that these people were fighting to gain power in knowing I would be in the oppressed population if these people gained control.
    Um.... no.

    The question is that is fighting for the power to create a society/government that is the antithisis of a free society (see below) fighting for freedom?

    And if not, can those that do fight for said society then be called 'freedom fighters'?

    My personal views are very much in line with this.
    As I suspected
    Thus, we need not have a long discussion as to what it means to 'actually fight for freedom'.

  9. #49
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I suspected
    Thus, we need not have a long discussion as to what it means to 'actually fight for freedom'.
    Yeah, I had already given up and answered "no-no" a while ago anyways.
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  10. #50
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by creativedreams View Post
    I do find it disturbing that while our leadership was getting us all focused on the terrorists attacking freedom and our rights...we were actually being "pick-pocketed" of the very same while our attention was turned.

    So who is the bigger terrorist against freedom?

    This reminds me of some of the famous quotes by great people (Presidents, Einstein, etc.) years ago who talked about how the real threats will be in the guise of fighting a foreign threat.
    Am I off base?

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