View Poll Results: 2-part question. See OP. Please explain your answer.

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Thread: If you are fighting...

  1. #91
    R.I.P. Léo
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    bub, this page may help.

    BBC: Who are the Taleban



    The rest of the page is useful reading too.
    thanks, but the article does not use the word "Mujahideen" correctly: "Mujahideen" means "Jihadist", and Talibans, who are fighting to introduce the Sharia, are merely a radical group coming from what the article calls "Mujahideen" (the Mujahideens who fought against USSR) and who fought against the ones who became warlords

    But again, that is not the point. The point is that there is no reason to call the Mujahideens who fought against USSR "freedom fighters" and the (also Mujahideens) Talibans who fight against the USA "terrorists"

    So please, discuss about the second point, not about wether Talibans are Mujahideens or not
    Last edited by bub; 02-11-09 at 12:32 PM.

  2. #92
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    But again, that is not the point. The point is that there is no reason to call the Mujahideens who fought against USSR "freedom fighters" and the (also Mujahideens) Talibans who fight against the USA "terrorists"
    Even if that's true (and I am trying very hard to not laugh my lunch out my nose when I say that) what does ANY of that have to do with the question in the OP?

  3. #93
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post

    P.S. Bub, as many people have already said, the Taliban are not the same as the Mujahideen in this context. It's best to just let it go, bro.
    that's what I try to do but Goobieman refuses to answer this argument (he has skipped it 3 or 4 times):

    "let's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both) => what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies"

  4. #94
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Llet's say that they are unrelated (which is false: Bin Laden was both)
    Yes. And this means that the Boy Scouts are related to the Nazis, because Hitler was a member of both.


    what would be the difference? Don't they use the same tactics? What would make the first group "freedom fighters" and the others "terrorists"? Just because you don't like the commies
    This is meaningless.
    Freedom fighters can be terrorists.
    Terrorists can be freedom fighters.
    The question isnt the means they use, its what they fight for.

  5. #95
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Even if that's true (and I am trying very hard to not laugh my lunch out my nose when I say that) what does ANY of that have to do with the question in the OP?
    It's simple:

    1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

    2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

    3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

    4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's

  6. #96
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    It's simple:

    1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

    2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

    3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

    4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's
    Even if all this were valid, which it is not (you'd fail a basic logic course) . . .

    So what? The poll doesn't ask what Reagan said. (That, too, would fail you in a logic course.)
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  7. #97
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    It's simple:
    1) Taliban = a kind of Mujahideen

    2) Reagan (& the CIA & most of the West): "Mujahideen" = "freedom fighters"

    3) Taliban = Mujahideen = freedom fighters

    4) So, the answer of your poll is yes-yes according to Reagan, the CIA and all the other countries that supported the Mujahideen during the 80's
    Your argument fails.

    1) Factually flawed, as you have been shown so many times.
    2) Logically flawed. Being a 'freedom fighter' isnt determined by who refers to you as one.
    3) Logically and factually flawed (see 1 and 2)
    4) Logically and factually flawed (see 1, 2 and 3).

    So, you can answer yes-yes if you want, but your answer is usnound, as demosntrated above.

    Now, its up to YOU to scare up the intellectual honesty to admit that, even if just to yourself.

  8. #98
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. And this means that the Boy Scouts are related to the Nazis, because Hitler was a member of both.
    That is a good argument.
    However I'll debunk it after this quote:

    This is meaningless.
    Freedom fighters can be terrorists.
    Terrorists can be freedom fighters.
    The question isnt the means they use, its what they fight for.
    Both Mujahideen and Taliban (who are a kind of Mujahideen according to the Merriam Webster dictionary) are Islamists.

    Islamists struggle in order to establish an Islamist state.

    The Mujahideens in the 80's have established the "Islamic state of Afghanistan"
    The Taliban (who are also Mujahideen) have the same ideology, they fight for the same thing, "though the Taliban subscribed to a particularly narrow interpretation of Islam"

    Much of the civil war could be characterized as an ethnic conflict between the Pashtun Taliban, and the non-Pashtun Northern Alliance, since both sides of the conflict espoused fundamentalist Islam.

    So, they fight for the same thing, the difference is that Talibans are Pashtun.

  9. #99
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    That is a good argument.
    I know. And, its pretty much the basis for you Mujahadeen = Taliban arugment.

    Both Mujahideen and Taliban (who are a kind of Mujahideen according to the Merriam Webster dictionary) are Islamists.

    Islamists struggle in order to establish an Islamist state.

    The Mujahideens in the 80's have established the "Islamic state of Afghanistan"
    Factually and logically flawed, rendering your conclusion unsound.

  10. #100
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    Re: If you are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Even if all this were valid, which it is not (you'd fail a basic logic course) . . . [
    Why?


    So what? The poll doesn't ask what Reagan said. (That, too, would fail you in a logic course.)
    Reagan is just an example to show that the USA & the Western world have supported fundamentalist Islamists and called them "freedom fighters"

    That shows that according to those who supported them (= the Western world), you can fight "for the power to create a murderous, oppressive, theocratic government" (fundamental Islamism is about that) and be a "freedom fighter"

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