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Thread: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

  1. #251
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post


    Right. Because Jefferson was all about time-bombing restaurants, and what he had in mind when he wrote that was maximizing civilian casualties.

    This is patently absurd. There are rebels who use terrorist tactics. But not all rebels do. Our Founding Fathers did not. They were traitors to the Crown. But they were not terrorists.
    You are caught up on the fact that they don't fight fair. The British didn't think we fought fair either as we hid behind trees while they marched and played music out in the open.
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  2. #252
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It wasn't just military... It was conducted against women and children by Enlightened men professing the highest values for personal rights and freedom. I understand your point, but I made my point and I am sure that you see it for what it is.
    Well, if your point is that people don't always live up to their highest values, then sure. That goes without saying. But it doesn't make them terrorists. It WAS a military operation even if it didn't target only military targets (insomuch as the Indian tribes had "militaries.") It was conducted openly by the Continental Army under orders.

    You can always define "terrorism" so broadly as to encapsulate anything you want. There is no standard definition, but it generally refers to non-governmental personnel conducting violence against non-military targets with the specific intent to kill or maim civilians in furtherance of a political goal, usually conducted clandestinely, and generally outside a declared hostility.
    2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
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  3. #253
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    As would I. I'm not talking about the leadership, I'm talking about the individuals who were IRA members. Some never engaged in terrorism.
    I don't doubt that.



    ]
    65% is way off, Wessex. 68% of Protestants are Unionist, but overall using the total population, the numbers are 38% Unionist, 24% Republican, and 35% "Neither"

    NI Life and Times Survey - 2003: UNINATID
    I don't know how you can be "neither". Either you consider yourself Irish and want to be part of Ireland or you consider yourself British and are a Unionist or perhaps you simply consider yourself an Ulsterman but that is usually a mild loyalist position.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #254
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Well, if your point is that people don't always live up to their highest values, then sure. That goes without saying. But it doesn't make them terrorists. It WAS a military operation even if it didn't target only military targets (insomuch as the Indian tribes had "militaries.") It was conducted openly by the Continental Army under orders.

    You can always define "terrorism" so broadly as to encapsulate anything you want. There is no standard definition, but it generally refers to non-governmental personnel conducting violence against non-military targets with the specific intent to kill or maim civilians in furtherance of a political goal, usually conducted clandestinely, and generally outside a declared hostility.
    Oh, I agree... I just like to point out that Washington issued orders to terrorize women and children specifically.
    It bugs people...
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    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  5. #255
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Therer's no verbal trap in my question.
    Its completely straightforwrd, and very simple.
    The answer is as well.
    I've read some of your posts before and recognise your debating style is all I'm saying. I've not read any claims anywhere where Hamas say they are freedom fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    --So you would agree that Hamas, Hizboolah, and AQ are -not- actually freedom fighters, since they do not actually fight for freedom.
    I don't have personal acquaintance with their version of "freedom" - neither do I speak for them. They call themselves a "resistance movement." They also use terrorist tactics which is undeniable.

    Personally, I can't think of any freedom fighter or resistance movement that hasn't been involved in atrocities against civilians (which is also known as "terrorism".) However, as Egoftib has pointed out repeatedly - "freedom" is as subjective as the term "freedom fighter" or "terrorist."

  6. #256
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I know the black and tans targetted civilians and engaged in other terror tactics during the 1920's.
    Agreed, there were atrocities on both sides during the early 20th Century - both by the IRA and by the British soldiers there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    As far as the fromation of the pIRA goes, this was brought on by protestant paramilitary groups such as the UVF who engaged in terrorism and ended up in positions of authority in such groups as theUDR and RUC.

    I'll give you this - Provisional IRA history

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Yes, I've watched some of the "truth and reconciliation" hearings which Archbishop Desmond Tutu chaired. What you have to recognise is the IRA and that includes Sinn Fein had to apologise to legitimise their quest for parliamentary power. I'm glad they did - they had a bad history involving brutality within the catholic community - they controlled the drugs trade etc.

    However, you will find very few ex servicemen (myself included) who will talk of their call of service in Northern Ireland - we are still targets even though the IRA is no more involved in an up front campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    --snip-- Killing members of the government, especially terrorist elements within the government (i.e. the RUC & UDF), in a fight for freedom is not terrorism.
    As I said before - there were terror tactics used by both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    -- There is no doubt that some members of the pIRA most definitely engaged in terrorism, but it was not a universal tactic employed by every member of the pIRA.
    That's a rose tinted review of history I'm afraid. Of course the political leadership and others of nearly every terrorist group is kept away from the frontline atrocities and plans - that's the job of splinter cells and the way modern terror groups are organised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    the pIRA was not the only terrorist group in Northern Ireland, and as far as the ratio of dead civilians to combatants goes, they were far from the worst terrorist group in Northern Ireland.
    I'm guessing your point is the British Army in Northern Ireland?

  7. #257
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Again, freedom is different for each group of people. It is all subjective.


    That's possibly the most remarkably inane thing I have ever read.

    Under you argument, the post-WW2 Nazi resistance fighters (the few that there were) fought for freedom.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 02-10-09 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #258
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    They are fighting for freedom from Israel.
    They are fighting for the power to create an oppressive, theocratic government.
    That's NOT fighting for freedom.

  9. #259
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    I may agree with EgoffTib...
    The UN must do something right , or as right as possible and establish an independent state of "Palestine", a partition of "greater"Israel..
    I think this was tried 60 years ago and was allowed to fail..
    So try again !
    Or there will be war and suffering for another 100 years..
    As far as "freedom" goes, this too, has 1,000 definitions..
    If the Arabs in Palestine want a repressive theocratic government, then so be it...
    IMO , terrorism is done out of hatred and fear, not really to accomplish anything politically...whereas the "freedom fighters cause is to be left alone and respected....something many nations in this world cannot handle..

  10. #260
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    Re: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Again, freedom is different for each group of people. It is all subjective. The sooner you realize this the better.



    You do realize by that logic rape is just a form of sex then.


    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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