View Poll Results: Which thinker/Pundit has influenced you most?

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  • Edmund Burke

    1 5.00%
  • Rush Limbaugh

    1 5.00%
  • Sean Hannity

    1 5.00%
  • Bill O'Reilly

    2 10.00%
  • Pat Buchanan

    0 0%
  • Russell Kirk

    0 0%
  • John Adams

    2 10.00%
  • F.A Hayek

    1 5.00%
  • Michael Oakeshott

    0 0%
  • Other(Please specifiy).

    12 60.00%
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Thread: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

  1. #41
    Dorset Patriot
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You may be describing British conservatism, but that's not the core of American conservatism. At best, it describes facets of the Neo-Conservative movement, and I use that in its true form, not the bastardization of it proffered by rabid opponents of Bush. Neo-Conservatives are former Marxists who never lost their affinity for big government.

    But that's not what the core of American conservatism is. The core of American conservatism is classical liberalism. I mean, I attend the meetings and read the literature. I know what we think.
    No the core of American Conservatism is Conservatism in the Burkean sense(ignoring the fact there are several strands in American Conservatism as different from each other as some are from Anglican Conservatism). Like Angican Conservatism it is influenced by Classical liberalism but it isn't classical liberalism and in no sense can any Conservatism be considered simply individualist, you are completely wrong here. There is no way around that, you have basically outlined a "Conservatism" that cares little for tradition or social institutions and values, that is nonsense, there is no meaningful sense such a way of looking at society and individuals ciuld be called Conservative.

    Have you read works by major American Conservative authors like John Adams, John Randolph of Roanoke, Russell Kirk, Robert Nisbet etc?

    Exactly what neoconservatism and Marxism have to do with this I don't know. I think you are confusing anything that is not individualist in the classical liberal sense with Marxist style Collectivism. That is nonsense and makrs you out as being what Americans call libertarian rather than Conservative. No Conservative is an individualist in the way you use the term.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #42
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    you have basically outlined a "Conservatism" that cares little for tradition or social institutions and values
    How?


    Exactly what neoconservatism and Marxism have to do with this I don't know.
    They are a brand of American conservative less enamored with individualism.


    I think you are confusing anything that is not individualist in the classical liberal sense with Marxist style Collectivism.
    Again, how? Just because I called the Neo-Conservatives former Marxists? They are.


    That is nonsense and makrs you out as being what Americans call libertarian rather than Conservative. No Conservative is an individualist in the way you use the term.
    In what "way" do I "use the term"?
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  3. #43
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    I guess it would be paine on the origin and design of government that originally got me interested in political science. prior to reading that I had not really stopped to think about the theoretical aspect of it if you know what I mean.
    Paine made for a good template I would say, but I have to agree in part with Wessexman that he was a start at most, the founding fathers, namely Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, et. al. influenced my political philosophy, Hannity and Limbaugh are people I tend to agree with on many issues, but they came around after my take on conservatism was already formed, I would have to say Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, and the Heritage foundation also helped to shape some of my overall views as well.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  4. #44
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    How?
    Because the idea of individuals and society which you called Conservaitve is one of autonomous, self-sufficing, rational individual with little place for associations and institutions and society itself.




    They are a brand of American conservative less enamored with individualism.
    I don't think they are "less enamored" but no Conservative can be an individualist in the way Thoreau is or even Mill. Next you'll be suggesting Max Stirner is a Conservative.




    Again, how? Just because I called the Neo-Conservatives former Marxists? They are.
    Some are. The implication that all non-individualists are linked to Marxists is silly.


    In what "way" do I "use the term"?
    The classical liberal way and a rather extreme way at that. One which revolves around autonomous and self-reliant individuals with institutions and society being ephemeral, regulatory at best and sprouting only from the rational actions of individuals. There is little Conservative about such a viewpoint even in any American sense whether that be of New England Conservatives like John Adams, Antebellum Southern Conservatives like John Randolph of Roanoke, Bourbon Democrats, Conservative revivalists like Weaver, Kirk and Nisbet, the New right like Buckley or the Neo- and Paleo- cons.

    I did notice you didn't really respond to most of my post and just picked a few lines that suited it best, btw.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-09-09 at 11:15 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #45
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Walter Williams.

    Walter Williams Home Page

  6. #46
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Walter Williams.

    Walter Williams Home Page
    Another brilliant conservative, I ran across him during a Rush Limbaugh vacation, but tend to agree with him quite a bit as well, again though, my views were formed at a young age, and the current conservatives are those that I feel are more of a representation of my beliefs rather than founders of such.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  7. #47
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Because the idea of individuals and society which you called Conservaitve is one of autonomous, self-sufficing, rational individual with little place for associations and institutions and society itself.
    How does classical liberalism preclude the idea of a sense of (voluntary) social responsibility?


    I don't think they are "less enamored" but no Conservative can be an individualist in the way Thoreau is or even Mill.
    In the British sense, no.


    Some are. The implication that all non-individualists are linked to Marxists is silly.
    It IS silly. And I never said they were. Not all non-individualists are Neo-Conservatives. As we've gone through this twice, I'm starting to think you're deliberately misrepresenting what I say.


    I did notice you didn't really respond to most of my post and just picked a few lines that suited it best, btw.
    And you keep accusing me of saying things I didn't say.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    How does classical liberalism preclude the idea of a sense of (voluntary) social responsibility?
    The extreme sense you use certainly often does and a lot of classical liberal doesn't have a lot of time for it either.




    In the British sense, no.
    And the American senses.

    I notice you did not attempt to respond to my arguments. Which American sense of Conservatism is actually the extreme individualism you talk of?

    You are not talking of any American Conservatism, you don't seem to know much about that, but classical liberalism and often an extreme kind like Thoreau's at that.


    It IS silly. And I never said they were. Not all non-individualists are Neo-Conservatives. As we've gone through this twice, I'm starting to think you're deliberately misrepresenting what I say.
    Why bring up neocons or Marxists then.

    And you keep accusing me of saying things I didn't say.
    It is called implications. It is an important concept in literary criticism. You must have brought these terms for a reason.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #49
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    Re: Interesting question for Conservatives/rightwingers.

    I don't care for any of them, left or right wing however the right wing nuts are at least entertaining.

    Occasionally I find that I agree with some of these guys, but the whole commercial aspect of political talk shows (ie: 3 minutes of talk then 5 minutes of commercials) is too painful. Add to that the sometimes less-than-genuine approach these guys take, it's hard to buy what they're selling.

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