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Thread: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    Just because the original constitution allows for states to operate as a theocracy doesn't mean I would like it. He wants theocracy at the state level which makes him a theocrat
    Did you not read my post?

    An established church is not nor has ever properly been regarded as a theorcacy. England has never been a theorcacy. A theoracy is something more, it is rule by the priesthood or something very close. You are calling a spade an earthmover.

    This seems to be a common liberal tactic these days like conservatives call liberals socialists. I object to this misuse of language for pure propaganda purposes.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Did you not read my post?
    Did you read mine? He supports churches setting religious tests that politicians must abide by to control office. What more do you need to gain a theocracy?

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    Did you read mine? He supports churches setting religious tests that politicians must abide by to control office. What more do you need to gain a theocracy?
    Actual rule by priests or something quite close. A theocracy is a state that is either a religious establishment as well, ie the church is not just a semi-independent wing of the state but is the state, or you a situation where the state and church are so entangled that you come very close. An established church and even quite significant cross fertilisation of church and state is not a theocracy unless it reaches the above mentioned levels.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Actual rule by priests or something quite close. A theocracy is a state that is either a religious establishment as well, ie the church is not just a semi-independent wing of the state but is the state, or you a situation where the state and church are so entangled that you come very close. An established church and even quite significant cross fertilisation of church and state is not a theocracy unless it reaches the above mentioned levels.
    If a state officially recognized one church as THE Church, you have a theocracy.

    And Alan Keyes supports exactly that.

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    If a state officially recognized one church as THE Church, you have a theocracy.
    .
    No you don't.

    England in the 16th century was not a theocracy, having a state church is not enough by far for that. However the Geneva of Calvin could certainly be considered a theocracy because the church and state were pretty much the same thing.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    No you don't.

    England in the 16th century was not a theocracy, having a state church is not enough by far for that. However the Geneva of Calvin could certainly be considered a theocracy because the church and state were pretty much the same thing.
    Sorry but it does.

    If a state only allows one church to marry you, or one church to perform baptisms, you live under a theocracy where the church and the government are intertwined to such a degree that you can't even separate the two.

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    Sorry but it does.

    If a state only allows one church to marry you, or one church to perform baptisms, you live under a theocracy where the church and the government are intertwined to such a degree that you can't even separate the two.
    You are correct that a theocracy could be a situation where you can't seperate the church and state because a theocracy is a situation where the church and state are the same thing or practically so. However you are making a giant and inccurate leap now that that means all situations where there is an established church. It doesn't mean that by any means.

    The problem is you are acting like the point of the term is as perojative for any gov't you think has too much religious influence in it rather than as a specific way the state is organised.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 02-02-09 at 01:37 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are correct that a theocracy could be a situation where you can't seperate the church and state because a theocracy is a situation where the church and state are the same thing or practically so. However you are making a giant and inccurate leap now that that means all situations where there is an established church. It doesn't mean that by any means.

    The problem is you are acvting like the point of the term is as perojative for any gov't you think has too much religious influence in it rather than as a specific way the state is organised.
    If unelected clergy can make rules and religious tests that public officials must follow, you have a theocracy. Alan Keyes argues that the constitution allows this to take place so long as it is not the federal government that must abide by such tests. He is a theocrat and doesn't even run from such a label.

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    If unelected clergy can make rules and religious tests that public officials must follow, you have a theocracy.
    If they are actually ruling then it could be not otherwise.

    Alan Keyes argues that the constitution allows this to take place so long as it is not the federal government that must abide by such tests. He is a theocrat and doesn't even run from such a label.
    He seems to argue that some wedding of church and state can take place and that states should be allowed established churches. This is not a theoracy unless it goes quite a bit further and state and church become pretty much the same thing.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Why can't Republicans or Conservatives get behind Alan Keyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    If they are actually ruling then it could be not otherwise.

    He seems to argue that some wedding of church and state can take place and that states should be allowed established churches. This is not a theoracy unless it goes quite a bit further and state and church become pretty much the same thing.
    sigh.

    If an offical sanctioned Church can create rules that elected officials must follow they hold power over the government and become intertwined. You are making this more complex then it actually is.

    I'm not going to waste any more time. The reason he is not liked by many conservatives is because he embraces theocracy.

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