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Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

  • Yes, it was.

    Votes: 18 41.9%

  • No, it wasn't.

    Votes: 25 58.1%
  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .
Arch Enemy said:
No,

seriously. I am interested in what your definition of the "United States Nation" is. It is highly relevant to the debate at hand, because I think you're going to have one hell of a difficult time defining the "United States Nation".
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I don't have personal definitions....for anything.

People smarter than me have already hammered out what words mean.
 
moe said:
Just curious if any one has mentioned that it was the founding fathers who initiated the policy of separation of church and state? Since they are the ones that initiated it with the support of their constituents then why should anybody be surprised not to see heavy religious overtones in early government? Christianity was the primary religion at the time. Obedience to the laws of God and man were and are common sermon topics. It was already assumed by the early settlers that considering that the government was and would be made up of rank and file citizens that they voted for that Christian ideals and principles would be properly presented and supported in the government.

Our founding fathers began a system of the peoples will being represented in Government. In the beginning there was a Christian majority so it only makes sense the system that arose is as Tucker points out influenced by Christian ideals. The conflicts come today because now their are many different voices from many different cultures and religions who want their voice heard. But it seems those that complain the most are the non religious.

Moe
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For a bunch of irrational, illogical religious zealots they sure made one hell of a country :mrgreen:
 
Jerry said:
I don't have personal definitions....for anything.

People smarter than me have already hammered out what words mean.
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Then what is the definition of The United States Nation.

Please, stop *****-toeing around this question.
 
Ooooo... ***** toeing. Me likey... Sounds kinky.

Would that make one a "nymp-toe-maniac?"
 
Jerry said:
According to your logic, the 10 commandments are not Christian because they are not exclusively Christian.
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They are the principles of Christianity. I never said that they were unique or exclusive to Christianity. I sure wouldn't say that Christianity was founded upon them.


Jerry said:
I see no opposition.

Please educate me.
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Thou shalt not worship any other Gods before Me vs. Worship any God you like.
 
Jerry said:
You're telling me that I am at fault for assuming the average member has a grade school education and/or access to a dictionary.

My bad.

Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online

nation - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

united states - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
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JERRY, for the love of all that is holy.

Ok **** it. I'll bite.

1) The link you provided is not defining the United States in which we are currently citizens are, as it was pertaining to a European Concept.

2) The United States of America is defined as
Webster said:
country North America bordering on Atlantic, Pacific, & Arctic oceans; a federal republic ∗ Washington area 3,619,969 square miles (9,375,720 square kilometers), population 281,421,906
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A COUNTRY AND A NATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT A NATION IT IS A COUNTRY.
 
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independent_thinker2002 said:
They are the principles of Christianity. I never said that they were unique or exclusive to Christianity. I sure wouldn't say that Christianity was founded upon them.
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Well now I fail completely to understand why anyone is asking about exclusively Christian principals.

independent_thinker2002 said:
Thou shalt not worship any other Gods before Me vs. Worship any God you like.
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The 10 commandments are not restrictions on God whereas the amendments are restrictions on government.

Commandment 1 is telling you to do something, Amendment 1 is not.

Commandment 1 places an obligation on you personally, Amendment 1 does not.

And besides, I don't see God stopping anyone from worshiping other gods, do you? Ever notice that the 10 Commandments to not proscribe a punishment? There's a reason for that, but I digress.
 
Jerry said:
Well now I fail completely to understand why anyone is asking about exclusively Christian principals.



The 10 commandments are not restrictions on God whereas the amendments are restrictions on government.

Commandment 1 is telling you to do something, Amendment 1 is not.

Commandment 1 places an obligation on you personally, Amendment 1 does not.

And besides, I don't see God stopping anyone from worshiping other gods, do you? Ever notice that the 10 Commandments to not proscribe a punishment? There's a reason for that, but I digress.
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My head's starting to hurt. You don't even know your own bible. THERE IS A PUNISHMENT.
Deuteronomy 17; 2-7 said:
“If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4 and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death. 6 “On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. 7 “The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
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Arch Enemy said:
A COUNTRY AND A NATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT A NATION IT IS A COUNTRY.
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Out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I'll give you the opportunity to amend or retract that statement before proceeding to prove it wrong.

I mean, even the source I gave in the post you quoted contradicts your claim.
 
Jerry said:
Out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I'll give you the opportunity to amend or retract that statement before proceeding to prove it wrong.

I mean, even the source I gave in the post you quoted contradicts your claim.
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Bring it on buddy. The United States of America is defined as a country. And please, look through here (define: United States of America - Google Search) and tell me a definition that does call it a nation.
 
Arch Enemy said:
My head's starting to hurt. You don't even know your own bible. THERE IS A PUNISHMENT.
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Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 17; 2-7

“If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4 and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death. 6 “On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. 7 “The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
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Are we in Israel?
 
You know what. I am going to go along and play with your idea of specifics with in the Bible.

1 Cor 15 said:
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
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Paul/Saul was a Jew. Sosthenes was a Jew. Corinth was a "strong Jewish nucleus".

Therefore YOU, my friend, are not a part of "our". Therefore, Christ did not die for you, so you are wasting your time.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Bring it on buddy. The United States of America is defined as a country. And please, look through here (define: United States of America - Google Search) and tell me a definition that does call it a nation.
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Ok, lube up.....

United States
: a federation of states especially when forming a nation in a usually specified territory <advocating a United States of Europe>
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United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[...]

At 3.79 million square miles (9.83 million km²) and with about 305 million people, the United States is the third or fourth largest country by total area, and third largest by land area and by population. The United States is one of the world's most ethnically diverse and multicultural nations, the product of large-scale immigration from many countries.[7] The U.S. economy is the largest national economy in the world, with an estimated 2008 gross domestic product (GDP) of US$14.3 trillion (23% of the world total based on nominal GDP and almost 21% at purchasing power parity).[4][8]

The nation was founded by thirteen colonies of Great Britain located along the Atlantic seaboard. On July 4, 1776, they issued the Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed their independence from Great Britain and their formation of a cooperative union. The rebellious states defeated Great Britain in the American Revolutionary War, the first successful colonial war of independence.[9] A federal convention adopted the current United States Constitution on September 17, 1787; its ratification the following year made the states part of a single republic with a strong central government. The Bill of Rights, comprising ten constitutional amendments guaranteeing many fundamental civil rights and freedoms, was ratified in 1791.

[...]
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United Nations member states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the last humiliation I'll make you suffer on this post:
The Pledge of Allegiance to the United States Flag
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
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***
That issue is now at rest. I will no longer entertain the idea that the US is not a nation. Please accept correction and proceed with the greater argument on Christian motivations.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Dude are you serious?

Are you trying to claim that the laws of the old testament do not pertain to you because you don't live in Israel?
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I'm claiming that the specific law you quoted only applies in Israel, yes.

Even assuming that we were in Israel, Jesus has since died in that woman's place, so she need not be stoned.
 
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Arch Enemy said:
You know what. I am going to go along and play with your idea of specifics with in the Bible.

Paul/Saul was a Jew. Sosthenes was a Jew. Corinth was a "strong Jewish nucleus".

Therefore YOU, my friend, are not a part of "our". Therefore, Christ did not die for you, so you are wasting your time.
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That post belongs on a diferent thread.
 
Jerry said:
Ok, lube up.....

United States


United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


United Nations member states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the last humiliation I'll make you suffer on this post:
The Pledge of Allegiance to the United States Flag


***
That issue is now at rest. I will no longer entertain the idea that the US is not a nation. Please accept correction and proceed with the greater argument on Christian motivations.
Click to expand...

You still fail to adhere to the general consent of Political Science, instead your strapped to your dictionaries, as if they were more credible then God herself.

1) I don't pledge allegiance, because they have bastardized the Pledge with the insinuation that God exists (again, another debate).

2) Most political scientists agree (if not all) that a Nation is a group of individuals with a common culture. A State/Country refers to a territory, or it could be referring to the actual government for the territory.

There can be MULTIPLE nations within a STATE. but not MULTIPLE STATES within a NATION. I know you are going to use the "but but but but but there's many states within the United States" however, each state is disenfranchised as working outside the confines of the Federal government, i.e. they cannot make treaties. So they are the arms and legs of the federal government.

You gave me the dictionary definition of the term (EUROPEAN TERM) of United States, however besides the obvious problem with the term not actually referring to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (which only has the term nation in it for Wikipedia. you know that great word-wide database that can be edited by everyone, and most professors do not allow it as a credible source) the implication that the United States is a nation is the implication that I share a similar culture with someone from.. let's say.... Texas.

Let me give you a real world example: I have a friend who lived a few miles away from me back in my hometown. He lived in a more urban setting, Durham, and he was black. According to your little definition, he and I are a part of the "Nation" that we "share common culture, etc." That's not true. I celebrate Christmas, he celebrates Hanukkah . I live in a post-industrial revolution family structure. His entire family lives with him. English is my first language, English is his second. We are both American. We both live in the same country, however our cultures are completely different.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/nation/index.htm said:
A nation is a large group of people with strong bonds of identity - an "imagined community," a tribe on a grand scale. The nation may have a claim to statehood or self-rule, but it does not necessarily enjoy a state of its own. National identity is typically based on shared culture, religion, history, language or ethnicity, though disputes arise as to who is truly a member of the national community or even whether the "nation" exists at all (do you have to speak French to be Québécois? are Wales and Tibet nations?). Nations seem so compelling, so "real," and so much a part of the political and cultural landscape, that people think they have lasted forever. In reality, they come into being and dissolve with changing historical circumstances - sometimes over a relatively short period of time, like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
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The concept of Nations is absolutely new.

Reply, as now I am completely absent-minded to what we were arguing in the first place.
 
Jerry said:
Well now I fail completely to understand why anyone is asking about exclusively Christian principals.
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Because unless otherwise stated, it could just be a logical principle.


Jerry said:
The 10 commandments are not restrictions on God whereas the amendments are restrictions on government.

Commandment 1 is telling you to do something, Amendment 1 is not.

Commandment 1 places an obligation on you personally, Amendment 1 does not.

And besides, I don't see God stopping anyone from worshiping other gods, do you? Ever notice that the 10 Commandments to not proscribe a punishment? There's a reason for that, but I digress.
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I thought we were discussing principles. Either a man can is permitted to worship as he pleases or he isn't. That is the principle.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Because unless otherwise stated, it could just be a logical principle.
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You and I can agree that murder is wrong, even if we each arrive at that shared opinion though completely different and mutually exclusive rationales.

It is the rational for the principal which makes the principal Christian. Another rational would make the same principal Buddhist, a 3rd rational would make the same principal atheist, etc.

Christianity, not Buddhism or secularism, is the chief agent of socialization which bound the founding fathers together in their reasoning and rational.

independent_thinker2002 said:
I thought we were discussing principles. Either a man can is permitted to worship as he pleases or he isn't. That is the principle.
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From one authority Man is, from another authority Man is not.

You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare amendments and commandments.
 
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Arch Enemy said:
Reply, as now I am completely absent-minded to what we were arguing in the first place.
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That pretty much summarizes your contribution to this thread: tangents, irrelevant trivia, unsourced claims and a lack of a cohesive structure leading to an orderly proof of an argument.

I never knew what your overall point was supposed to be, so welcome to the club.
 
Jerry said:
That pretty much summarizes your contribution to this thread: tangents, irrelevant trivia, unsourced claims and a lack of a cohesive structure leading to an orderly proof of an argument.

I never knew what your overall point was supposed to be, so welcome to the club.
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And yet you still can't debunk the proposition that the United States is a federal government system, where multiple nations live-- which is what I believe.

You seem to believe that there is a single nation within the United States, and that was the nation that evolved into a Christian one.

I don't understand how you get this.

I think you are blind to the diversity.
I'm curious, what would you say about Canada is there a large-scale Canadian nation, and if so how do you rectify that statement?
 
Jerry said:
You and I can agree that murder is wrong, even if we each arrive at that shared opinion though completely different and mutually exclusive rationales.

It is the rational for the principal which makes the principal Christian. Another rational would make the same principal Buddhist, a 3rd rational would make the same principal atheist, etc.

Christianity, not Buddhism or secularism, is the chief agent of socialization which bound the founding fathers together in their reasoning and rational.
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Those are universal principles found within every culture. You are not born into a religion as you are born into a culture; you are not Christian until you have accepted Christ.
So, truthfully, the founding fathers got these ideals of principles not through their religious beliefs but from an identity that is transcendent through all human cultures. You are giving credit to religion, when it is not religion but a basic HUMAN principle that is giving one these ideals.
 
Arch Enemy said:
And yet you still can't debunk the proposition that the United States is a federal government system, where multiple nations live-- which is what I believe.

You seem to believe that there is a single nation within the United States, and that was the nation that evolved into a Christian one.

I don't understand how you get this.

I think you are blind to the diversity.
I'm curious, what would you say about Canada is there a large-scale Canadian nation, and if so how do you rectify that statement?
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Jerry said:
The government is secular, but the nation as a whole was and is Christian.
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Arch Enemy said:
Those are universal principles found within every culture. You are not born into a religion as you are born into a culture; you are not Christian until you have accepted Christ.
So, truthfully, the founding fathers got these ideals of principles not through their religious beliefs but from an identity that is transcendent through all human cultures. You are giving credit to religion, when it is not religion but a basic HUMAN principle that is giving one these ideals.
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Jerry said:
Every time an atheist says 'it's wrong to murder' they are evidencing the universality the moral core every healthy human shares.....and the truth of scripture, ironicly.

(this is the exact passage I was referring to in that post)

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
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For the life of me I don't see where we disagree.
 
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Jerry said:
For the life of me I don't see where we disagree.
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I guess it's just on labels. I don't think it is right (but def. not fully incorrect) to label America as being founded by principles of Christianity. I think it is more accurate for it to be labeled as a country founded on the basic, good-willed, principles of Man.

I'm a humanist, fully philanthropic, so I put humans before god.

You are a Christian.

I think that's where we differ?
 
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