View Poll Results: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

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  • Yes, it was.

    34 45.95%
  • No, it wasn't.

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Thread: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

  1. #41
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    I think a more correct term would be "Christian-Judeo" Principles. Of course the United States was founded on Christian-Judeo principles. The claim otherwise is to deny the reality of historical fact. I'm sure some will because the left keeps trying to rewrite history every day.

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    Last edited by walleye; 01-29-09 at 11:51 AM.

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The government is secular, but the nation as a whole was and is Christian.

    Shamless plug: The 10 Big Lies About America
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think the Christian churches who wed same-sex couples, gay Catholic priests, Women who are anointed clergy and the millions of Pro-Choice Christians evidence the truth of your argument here.
    Jerry, I hope you understand the idea behind a reliable source. Are you sure Medved is a reliable source and not a right-wing commentator who spews problematic bull**** just to infuriate the left?


    Let me help you on some ideas of Medved, which I am sure you are aware.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2007/09/26/six_inconvenient_truths_about_the_us_and_slavery
    ITíS NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES.
    He is trying to "Inconveniently" tell us the truth about slavery, and uses the idea that those without slave labor, as it was abolished in many northern states before southern. However the fails to mention that the economy of the Americas WAS directly influenced by the SLAVE LABOR of the south. The North just did not will the raw materials into existence, they came from the South's slave labor.


    He also like to deny the Genocide committed against the native americans, but that's for another debate (Michael Medved : Reject the Lie of White "Genocide" Against Native Americans - Townhall.com)

    Now back on topic...... (next post)
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    As Sir Lion suggested I have not given any sort of debate-worthy material. I guess here it goes.


    I think the real essence of what we are trying to get at, with the question "Was the United States founded on Christian principles", needs to be broken down into smaller questions.

    1) What are Christian Principles?
    2) What principles of Christianity are exclusive to and only to Christianity.
    3) Is the United States based the expressed principles of the founding fathers, or what they considered their principles in a more personal life.


    I think we need to make this a little bit simpler and consider that by "Principles" we are talking about "Morality". Basically, whether the idea of America's Morality is the same as the idea of Christian Morality. Furthermore, we would also have to ratify that America's Morality is exclusively the morality of Christian doctrine, and not a universal morality.

    We need to see what the thinkers for contemporary moral philosophy have to say about it. David Hume, and Emmanuel Kant.

    Hume was an empiricist; to believe that all knowledge is gained through experience.
    Plan and simply, his views on Morality would be that morality follow from the self like so:
    Experiences bombard the senses. Each experience is different for each individual. Out of the experiences we create the concept of morality, therefore there is no universal morality as each experience is different and knowledge cultivates morality. This philosophy also indoctrinates the idea that no one is punishable for wrongdoing, as morality is different based on each individual. Now I am on board with saying this one is not how America does things, as we throw people in jail for even the pettiest of crimes.


    Emmanuel Kant was a rationalist. He fused ideas that the human knowledge is gained from both physical and metaphysical realms (experience and a categorical interpretation of the experience.)
    Kant believed that morality is ""Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of another, always at the same time as an end and never simply as a means." which looks very similar to Christianity's golden rule (Kant was an agnostic, I could explain this point as well if you want me to).

    What does this mean?
    Well I think that more American legislation and laws are in the good will of this doctrine; this Universal law (as it is found in at least 21 religions around the world: Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions) is not a creation or an explicit Christian idea-- it spans ideas from all over the world from different cultures.

    This is very basic summation, if I need to go more indepth then I will.

    Basically,
    No, America is not founded on Christian principles because the principles on which America is founded on (Ethics of Reciprocity) are not exclusive to Christianity.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    The founding fathers certainly believed in personal freedom and that God made man to be free. Just because that is a belief held by others who are not Christians it does not rule out judeo-Christian principles.

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    The founding fathers certainly believed in personal freedom and that God made man to be free. Just because that is a belief held by others who are not Christians it does not rule out judeo-Christian principles.
    I understand, but what I am getting at is that to say it was "founded on Christian principles" means that it was founded on principles exclusive to Christianity.

    The true answer is that United States were founded on Universal Ethics.

    There's quite a leap between the deism of the founding fathers and Christianity.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  6. #46
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    What are these principles that are exclusively Christian?
    Exclusively ?
    none.
    otherwise, most men know what they are, exclusive or not.

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Jerry, I hope you understand the idea behind a reliable source.
    I hope you understand the difference between a source and a plug

    I didn't source Medved to back up my argument, I plugged his argument to accompany my own, and he sources the Library of Congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Let me help you on some ideas of Medved, which I am sure you are aware.
    4. ITíS NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES.

    • Pennsylvania passed an emancipation law in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island followed four years later (all before the Constitution). New York approved emancipation in 1799. These states (with dynamic banking centers in Philadelphia and Manhattan) quickly emerged as robust centers of commerce and manufacturing, greatly enriching themselves while the slave-based economies in the South languished by comparison.
    • At the time of the Constitution, Virginia constituted the most populous and wealthiest state in the Union, but by the time of the War Between the States the Old Dominion had fallen far behind a half-dozen northern states that had outlawed slavery two generations earlier.
    • All analyses of Northern victory in the great sectional struggle highlights the vast advantages in terms of wealth and productivity in New England, the Mid-Atlantic States and the Midwest, compared to the relatively backward and impoverished states of the Confederacy.
    • While a few elite families in the Old South undoubtedly based their formidable fortunes on the labor of slaves, the prevailing reality of the planter class involved chronic indebtedness and shaky finances long before the ultimate collapse of the evil system of bondage.
    • The notion that America based its wealth and development on slave labor hardly comports with the obvious reality that for two hundred years since the founding of the Republic, by far the poorest and least developed section of the nation was precisely that region where slavery once prevailed.
    All of that is historically accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    He is trying to "Inconveniently" tell us the truth about slavery, and uses the idea that those without slave labor, as it was abolished in many northern states before southern. However the fails to mention that the economy of the Americas WAS directly influenced by the SLAVE LABOR of the south. The North just did not will the raw materials into existence, they came from the South's slave labor.
    You're misrepresenting his argument.

    Medved did not argue that slavery had no influence at all whatsoever, yet you are claiming he did argue such.

    Medved is arguing that America did not become wealthy from slave labor, that America in fact gained more wealth as slavery was abolished.

    Someone doesn't need to mention every single irrelevant piece of trivia you can dig up for their argument to be true. Besides, your trivia doesn't counter his argument, so it's irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    He also like to deny the Genocide committed against the native americans, but that's for another debate (Michael Medved : Reject the Lie of White "Genocide" Against Native Americans - Townhall.com)
    This example is shot down just as easily as your first attempt, are you sure you want to continue?

  8. #48
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think the Christian churches who wed same-sex couples, gay Catholic priests, Women who are anointed clergy and the millions of Pro-Choice Christians evidence the truth of your argument here.
    Don't recall Jesus Christ having much to say about any of the "issues" which you raised.
    "A Man you can bait with a tweet can't be trusted with nuclear weapons"

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    [...]
    I think the real essence of what we are trying to get at, with the question "Was the United States founded on Christian principles", needs to be broken down into smaller questions.

    1) What are Christian Principles?
    law.com Law Dictionary

    n. 1) standards of conduct derived from traditional moral principles (first mentioned by Roman jurists in the first century A.D.) and/or God's law and will. The biblical ten commandments, such as "thou shall not kill," are often included in those principles. Natural law assumes that all people believe in the same Judeo-Christian God and thus share an understanding of natural law premises.

    2) the body of laws derived from nature and reason, embodied in the Declaration of Independence assertion that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

    3) the opposite of "positive law," which is created by mankind through the state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    2) What principles of Christianity are exclusive to and only to Christianity.
    Quoted from above:
    Natural law assumes that all people believe in the same Judeo-Christian God and thus share an understanding of natural law premises
    The people who penned and signed the Constitution forming our seculer governement were decidly Christian:

    Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
    Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
    Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
    Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
    William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
    Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
    Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
    Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
    John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
    Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
    William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
    William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
    John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
    Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
    George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
    John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
    George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
    Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
    Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
    Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
    Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
    Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
    George Read Delaware Episcopalian
    Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
    Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
    William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
    Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
    Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
    Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
    Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
    Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
    William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
    Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
    Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
    Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
    Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
    George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
    Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
    Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
    Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
    James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
    Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
    George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
    Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
    Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
    Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
    John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
    Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
    John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
    William Floyd New York Presbyterian
    Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
    James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
    George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
    Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
    Christians using Christian concepts to form a Christian nation with a secular government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    3) Is the United States based the expressed principles of the founding fathers, or what they considered their principles in a more personal life.
    The very Declaration of Independence was based on the authority of the Judeo-Christian God and rights God affords to Man.

    So yes, America was founded as a Christian nation.

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Don't recall Jesus Christ having much to say about any of the "issues" which you raised.
    As if he needed to

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