View Poll Results: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

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  • Yes, it was.

    34 45.95%
  • No, it wasn't.

    40 54.05%
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Thread: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

  1. #11
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    proof?

    Even so, you cannot deny the other comments against it being the foundation of America.
    Treaty of Paris Look at the first ten words.

    Treaty of Tripoli

    link

    The eleventh article of the Barlow translation has no equivalent whatever in the Arabic. The Arabic text opposite that article is a letter from Hassan Pasha of Algiers to Yussuf Pasha of Tripoli. The letter gives notice of the treaty of peace concluded with the Americans and recommends its observation.
    another link

    The translation of the Treaty of Tripoli by Barlow has been found faulty, and there is doubt whether Article 11 in the version of the treaty ratified by Congress corresponds to anything of the same purport in the Arabic version.[18]

    In 1931 Hunter Miller completed a commission by the United States government to analyze United States's treaties and to explain how they function and what they mean in terms of the United States's legal position in relationship with the rest of the world.[19] According to Hunter Miller's notes, "the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic" and "Article 11... does not exist at all."[15]
    another link

    "The Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic . . . . Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, ‘the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,’ does not exist at all [in the Arabic]. There is no Article 11 [in the Arabic]. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point."

    Not quite as straightforward as you once thought, huh?
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  2. #12
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Article 11 was NOT in the Arabic version, which is authoritative.

    However, there is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. A far MORE important document relating to the founding of the United States



    The very first ten words of the treaty that established the independence of the colonies from England.
    Yes, but the Barlow version (the translated one) was the text that was presented to Congress under the Presidency of George Washington, ratified by Congress, and signed by the new President John Adams.

    That version was the one presented to both Barbary and the United States.

  3. #13
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Yes, but the Barlow version (the translated one) was the text that was presented to Congress under the Presidency of George Washington, ratified by Congress, and signed by the new President John Adams.

    That version was the one presented to both Barbary and the United States.
    Doesn't matter. When there is a lingustic problem due to translation, the original language of the treaty (in this case Arabic) governs the treaty if there is no provision specifying which language is authoritative.
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Doesn't matter. When there is a lingustic problem due to translation, the original language of the treaty (in this case Arabic) governs the treaty if there is no provision specifying which language is authoritative.
    The treaty that was signed and read aloud to the entirety of Congress was the Arabic translation. Do you ratify and sign something that has terms or text you do not agree with? The entire Senate was unanimous on this ratifying it, one of only three times the Senate has been unanimous on anything.

    And who is to say the Arabic version does not have Article XI in it?

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Was the United States founded on Christian principles?
    The United States was formalized as a nation by the ratification of the Constitution and it makes no mention of "Christian principles"; therefore the answer is no.

  6. #16
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    The treaty that was signed and read aloud to the entirety of Congress was the Arabic translation. Do you ratify and sign something that has terms or text you do not agree with? The entire Senate was unanimous on this ratifying it, one of only three times the Senate has been unanimous on anything.

    And who is to say the Arabic version does not have Article XI in it?
    A lot of people say that there is no Article XI in the original Arabic.

    When there is a treaty, the original version is what is being voted on, NOT the translation.

    Think about this. Let's say there is a treaty betwen the US and France up for a vote. It was written in French, but translated into English and has a clause noting that French is the authoritative language of the treaty. The Senate will be reading the English version. What are they voting on, the English version or the French? The answer is the French because if there is an alleged violation of the treaty, it will be the French version of the treaty that will be used to determine the nature of the violation.
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    I doesn't matter who added, or when it was added. Congress voted on it with the Barlow interpretations, including the plausibly atheist wording of Article XI
    Last edited by Arch Enemy; 01-29-09 at 01:17 AM.
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    A lot of people say that there is no Article XI in the original Arabic.

    When there is a treaty, the original version is what is being voted on, NOT the translation.

    Think about this. Let's say there is a treaty betwen the US and France up for a vote. It was written in French, but translated into English and has a clause noting that French is the authoritative language of the treaty. The Senate will be reading the English version. What are they voting on, the English version or the French? The answer is the French because if there is an alleged violation of the treaty, it will be the French version of the treaty that will be used to determine the nature of the violation.
    A lot of people can say what they want. That doesn't rule out that there could be Article XI in the original Arabic version.

    If the treaty specifically states a certain version of a treaty is the authoritative version of said treaty, then you are right.

    But none of that occurred then. The English translation is what they read, heard, ratified, and signed. They did not know the contents of the Arabic version.

    The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United States Senate clearly specifies that the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and that copies of the treaty were printed "for the use of the Senate." Nor is it plausible to argue that perhaps Senators voted for the treaty without being aware of the famous words. The treaty was quite short, requiring only two or three pages to reprint in most treaty books today--and printed, in its entirely, on but one page (sometimes the front page) of U.S. newspapers of the day. The lack of any recorded argument about the wording, as well as the unanimous vote and the and the wide reprinting of the words in the press of 1797, suggests that the idea that the government was not a Christian one was widely and easily accepted at the time.

  9. #19
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Read the question, answer it, and give your reasons.
    Very much so. When the United States was founded I do not think that Christian principals were quite understood the way when understand them today and also they had to deal with much more hardships.

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
    Very much so. When the United States was founded I do not think that Christian principals were quite understood the way when understand them today and also they had to deal with much more hardships.

    Good try, but you are wrong.
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