View Poll Results: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

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  • Yes, it was.

    34 45.95%
  • No, it wasn't.

    40 54.05%
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Thread: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

  1. #151
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
    I knew it all along.

    Well hold on...you asked for the definition of a 6th grade word and I provided it. If my definition didn't answer your question then perhaps you asked the wrong question? I've found that when people ask for definitions of basic words they are really trying to ask something else.
    I certainly know what the word means. What I am asking is how it is being used, contextually. I ask this in order to understand what the context of the question is.

    The complexity you refer to escapes me as I've already answered this: The government is secular, the nation as a whole is Christian.

    Principals exclusive to Christianity, such as accepting Jesus as your savior, the virgin birth, etc, are absent in the Constitution. This means the governing body is not Christian.

    Principals exclusive to Christianity, such as accepting Jesus as your savior, the virgin birth, etc, were overt and dominant in the social institutions, every day behaviors, speech, history and traditions of the common man. This means the nation as a people were Christian.
    If what you say above, you are referring to when the country was founded, I would agree. However, this was not denoted or defined, as far as I could see, until after my post. I saw it and if this is what the OP is referring to, then the context of the question is now clarified. This is really all I was looking for.


    Neither the DoI, Constitution, or any Federalist paper I can think of rely on any article of faith which is exclusive to any denomination. All of which, however, rely on the core principals of Christianity which each denomination in existence share with each other.

    As no document is based on any denomination, I fail to understand why you believe the specific types of Christianity involved is relevant in any way.
    You explained the context of the OP that I was looking for, above. Thank you. Someone finally clarified things for me.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #152
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Mr. Jerry,
    We are not debating whether or not the nation (if you can consider there to be a consenting transcendent nation within United States borders) is Christian, as the majority of her people are.

    WE ARE debating whether or not the United States is Christian.
    Actually, Arch, I think Jerry made it clear that we are NOT debating whether the US is Christian, but whether at the time of it's founding, the tenets and principles that went into building the US, at that time, were tenets and principles based on and referencing Christian tenets and principles. And, to respond to this, I would say, for the most part, yes.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #153
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, Arch, I think Jerry made it clear that we are NOT debating whether the US is Christian, but whether at the time of it's founding, the tenets and principles that went into building the US, at that time, were tenets and principles based on and referencing Christian tenets and principles. And, to respond to this, I would say, for the most part, yes.
    Please read my most recent post.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  4. #154
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    From one authority Man is, from another authority Man is not.

    You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare amendments and commandments.

    Thank you. Now you know why America wasn't founded on Christian principles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The Amish are light-years ahead of the rest of the human race.



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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    There is nothing vague about the OP, the USA was either founded upon Christian or secular principals. Yes the OP does include room for “dancing” which you and IT both participated in, while ignoring every single post in the thread that did address the OP. Do you need me to hook you up with perma links to the post in the thread from me Jerry and others that did address it? The ones you and IT both managed to ignore?

    I wonder, can you address the OP yourself Captain? Or are you and IT2002, instead content to sit back and merely cheery pick through the thread? While you ‘spot ignore’ the comments of those of us who have managed to address the OP and topic? I challenged IT to do the same and **poof** he vanished. Frankly I don’t care how many excuses you can make for ignoring the OP and topic to “question” those of us who could both grasp the question put forth by the OP and answer it.

    I know when I challenged IT to stop trolling the thread he simply **poof** up and vacated the thread.

    How lazy and easy is it for you to just pop in and pretend as if you don’t understand what is meant by the OP question? It is too vague for you you say? It is really very simple, if the USA was not founded upon Christian principals it must have been secular ones eh? Maybe you could muster up the effort to address the topic and thread, rather than trolling those of us who could do so?

    Do you have a “take” on this topic Captain? Or is posing “questions” to those who have one, your idea of an opinion here? How much wiggle room do you need to build into your answer to the thread/topic before you bravely answer it? Or do you really need Jerry to answer some more questions for you before you can boldly brave the tepid waters of the thread? Are they warm enough for you yet Captain? Because despite the fact that your questions have been largely answered (even before Jerry replied) all you seem to be able to do is claim it is all to vague for you, you need to pose some more questions of those who have been able to address the topic, despite the so called vague nature of it?
    And...you are wrong. To me, the OP question was vague. It is not for you to tell me that it is not. Your understanding of the context of the question is different from mine. Your opinion on the vagueness of the OP, in the context of my perception is irrelevant. Too often I have seen vague OP's either be used as a way to direct a discussion in a slanted way, or to create misinterpretation because of the lack of clarity. I like to be aware of what I am responding to, before I respond. And the fact that there are several here that wanted clarification is more evidence that you are wrong. Jerry has sufficiently answered my questions and clarified things so I can respond appropriately. That's all I needed. I wonder what the agenda surrounding your attacks is.

    It is not trolling to request clarification. It may be trolling, however, to attack those who request it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #156
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Thank you. Now you know why America wasn't founded on Christian principles.
    I don't follow, but then you didn't exactly make any attempt to show me your thinking, so I guess all is as intended

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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I don't follow, but then you didn't exactly make any attempt to show me your thinking, so I guess all is as intended
    It's because our country was founded on a government made of men that answers to men, not a government that is beholden to a higher power. That is what democratic republic is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The Amish are light-years ahead of the rest of the human race.



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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Please read my most recent post.
    Gotcha. And I see the basic disagreement between yours and Jerry's positions. It is about labels. This was kind of the reason I saw the OP as vague. The context it creates. Are those principle singularly Christian, or have they been around longer than that, and are they humanistic? Probably a good idea for another thread.

    However, I think it does matter what the founding fathers thought about the principles they used. And in their context, those principles were Christian. Therefore, based on what their perception was, I would agree that the US was founded on Christian principles. These principles may be humanistic to some, Buddhist to others, Hebrew to others, but in the context of who was using them to establish this country, they were Christian.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #159
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Gotcha. And I see the basic disagreement between yours and Jerry's positions. It is about labels. This was kind of the reason I saw the OP as vague. The context it creates. Are those principle singularly Christian, or have they been around longer than that, and are they humanistic? Probably a good idea for another thread.

    However, I think it does matter what the founding fathers thought about the principles they used. And in their context, those principles were Christian. Therefore, based on what their perception was, I would agree that the US was founded on Christian principles. These principles may be humanistic to some, Buddhist to others, Hebrew to others, but in the context of who was using them to establish this country, they were Christian.

    So,
    I guess we can all agree on that they were founded on a belief pre-text, possibly even religious.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  10. #160
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    Re: Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You and I can agree that murder is wrong, even if we each arrive at that shared opinion though completely different and mutually exclusive rationales.

    It is the rational for the principal which makes the principal Christian. Another rational would make the same principal Buddhist, a 3rd rational would make the same principal atheist, etc.

    Christianity, not Buddhism or secularism, is the chief agent of socialization which bound the founding fathers together in their reasoning and rational.
    Folks, this comment clarifies the problem here. We are not talking about different principles. The principles that we are discussing are somewhat universal. However, the question is, when the US was founded in what context were these principles used? The answer is Christianity. The principles themselves are not exclusively Christian, but the people who used them, when they did, derived them from Christianity.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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