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Thread: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

  1. #121
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Looks like he's planning on repeating a few scams.

    Obama lets CIA keep controversial renditions tool -- chicagotribune.com
    WASHINGTON — The CIA's secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba.

    But even while dismantling these discredited programs, President Barack Obama left an equally controversial counterterrorism tool intact.

    Under executive orders issued by Obama last week, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, or the secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the U.S.
    I like how they take no responsibility
    Obviously you need to preserve some tools, you still have to go after the bad guys," said an Obama administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity when discussing legal reasoning behind the decision. "The legal advisers working on this looked at rendition. It is controversial in some circles and kicked up a big storm in Europe. But if done within certain parameters, it is an acceptable practice.



    From the highest positive rated quote on digg regarding this quote
    It's fairly safe to say this will surprise no-one; Mr. Obama's strong message to the world is 'Business as Usual'.

    However, the only peculiar thing is the justification of state kidnapping as a vital tool against terrorism. Other than Israel, communist states and some African countries, nearly all nations long ago realized that apart from legalities this is too dangerous a weapon, analogous to not granting full protection to diplomats, for the civilized world to practice.

    -Claverhouse


    I'm wondering exactly the workings of it.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 02-02-09 at 01:04 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    It was the natural start to the expansion cycle of capitalism. The growth would have been larger in the early years if not hindered by New Deal programs.
    You keep using the referee analogy so I will use one also.
    Think of the economy during the depression as a huge block of ice sitting outside. The temperature is 15 degrees day after day.
    Everyone keep waiting for the ice to melt but it never does.
    Finally FDR decides to build a temp. controlled building around the ice block and the temperature will be set at 40 degrees. So the ice block begins to melt. In the meantime the outside temperature rises to 50 degrees.
    The ice block doesn't melt as fast as it would naturally because if the temperature controlled building. The economy didn't rebound as fast as it would have because of government interference.
    There is a business cycle no doubt. But that BC was stuck in a depression until FDR started spending the US out of it.

    The New Deal programs created millions of jobs that helped the US recover from the GD.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The Fed was created in 1913. It more or less changed our money supply by offering a partial fiat partial gold standard type currency. The Fed could inflate/deflate the currency at that time.
    Really. Niether Hoover nor Coolidge took advantage of that tool.

    Regulation and oversight are good idea's but they are never performed correctly by government(Madoff scandal). If a company emerges as a monopoly in a free market they have to operate as if they are still competing with another company. Otherwise they will find new competition springing up everywhere to unseat them.
    I disagree. The FDA, SEC, FTC, ATF etc. would also disagree with you.

    On the other hand government is a monopoly but a lot of people find it as a benevolent force. History has proven that untrue.
    We are the US government.

    Poverty is a fact of life. Some people don't have the motivation, the brain power, or the ability to learn new or better skills to adapt to a dynamic world.
    We will never escape it in any near future lifetime.
    I cannot be so facile with people's lives. Let's face it, the average intelligence in America is not impressive and half of the people are dumber than that. Just b/c they clean our streets or suck our sewers, do they have to be resigned to the threat of economic ruin? It is my opinion that those with the strongest arms (econonmically speaking) do the heaviest lifting.

    I'm not fans of Harding or Hoover but the Fed was relatively new and no one knew what going to happen until it was to late.
    I agree with this entirely. Even the New Deal was massive experimentation...a lot of hit or miss.

    The money he appropriated was either a: taken from the market in taxes or b: borrowed. In scenario a: the government acting as a middle man is inefficiency alone but that the money would be better spent by people creating jobs out of self interest.
    The very essence of a Depresion is hoarding of money by the people. They won't spend. It has to be spent for them.

    In scenario b: the borrowed money is robbed from future generations to cover the stupidity of now. It robs them of possible wealth and government is notorious for inefficiency.
    I disagree with your choice of language. It's not robbing and government is not inherently inefficient.

    Gov. is much more efficient than private business when comparing Soc. Sec. to private insurance companies.


    Since the Great Depression, it seems every 6-10 years we have a boom bust cycle. The rises in supposed economic growth are sharp, then the bust comes to correct the fake growth and it tries to find its center.
    Isn't growth from the vantage of population, a fact? More people producing?


    As a side note: Thanks for replying thoughtfully and intelligently.
    I apologize for calling your earlier post "partisan yapping" it was uncalled for
    Thanks. You're a decent guy.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Neither were ever fully privatized and it was always assumed they were defacto backed by the government. Turns out they were right.
    Yup.


    Can you substantiate that claim? I think it is incorrect. Bush actually call for MORE regulation and proposed an agency specifically to oversee Fannie/Freddie. It was shouted down by Franks, Watts, and others that were afraid it would adversely affect poor and minorities ability to get housing, exactly what I was talking about. Either way it doesn't matter who was keeping the program going, the point is Fannie/Freddie were used to get banks to make loans they would not otherwise make. You even admitted that.
    I was overstating it a bit in this respect, it was a Bush appointee that gutted the reserve requirement and not Bush himself.
    Here's a story that outlines how it worked: SEC Lifted Debt Limit For Brokerages In 2004

    "In 2004, the Security and Exchange Commission, led by then-chairman William H. Donaldson, unanimously approved a major change (deregulation) in the “net capital” rule, a change that reduced how much money banks had to hold in reserve to protect against bad investments (losses).

    The net effect of the rule change was to allow the investment banks to "leverage" their money more aggressively. What this means in layman's terms: for every dollar of equity, the investment banks could increase their debt. Bear Stearns was soon up to 33 to 1, and a lot of that debt was in mortgage-related securities. The corollary for Main Street (sorta): assume you have $50,000 in Certificates of Deposit (and have no other assets) and use those CDs as collateral for a loan of $1.7 million. If you default on your $1.7 million loan, your lender is S.O.L., as my dear departed mom would say. (Also see The ABCs of CDOs: How We Got Into Today's Financial Mess)

    That was 2004. In 2005, President Bush appointed Rep. Christopher Cox (R-CA) as SEC chief. William S. Lerach said the nomination "is like putting the fox in the chicken coop." After his nomination, Cox said: "The free and efficient movement of capital is helping to create the greatest prosperity in human history."

    And under Cox's leadership, the SEC did almost nothing to try to figure out just how that capital was moving about (emphasis added)..."


    I could have stated that whole thing better.


    Repeal of a few laws hardly constitutes "No Oversight"
    It's not the repeal of laws, it's the unenforced oversight laws that result in no oversight.

    This whole part leaves out the fact that if Government hadn't been offering bargain basement money to banks they would not have been able to loan the funds in the first place. The banks would have needed people to do things like save money in order to make loans. That means people need to have down payments. Fannie freddie loans do not have this requirement.
    I disagree. Banking and investing deregulation caused this mess. Not mortgage loans to lower middle class people.

    And why is it not Clinton and Gramm instead of Bush and Gramm?
    The Bill was Gramm's and the unenforced federal oversight laws were done by Bush's people and not Clinton.

  5. #125
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Do you realize the article you posted makes the case that a program started during the New Deal was used to create this financial crisis? That is exactly what I have been saying. The intervention of government hinders the proper correction that would occur in the market if left alone.
    From the ashes.

  6. #126
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Do you realize the article you posted makes the case that a program started during the New Deal was used to create this financial crisis? That is exactly what I have been saying. The intervention of government hinders the proper correction that would occur in the market if left alone.
    Some people are just now figuring this out.
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    and some will never figure it out!
    From the ashes.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    A free market is capable of self-correction, but when politicians start to feel the heat from a natural slump in the business cycle they are spurned to action by their constituencies and commanded to "do something" to "fix" the economy.

    In an attempt to give the appearance of due diligence politicians enact measures which delay and inhibit this self-correction thus prolonging and intensifying the inevitable collapse of the bubble. If we simply allowed the market to contract naturally after it over extended a correction would ensue. People would scale back on speculation and spending while saving and managing their money more efficiently. This would allow the bubble to break lightly and briefly instead of further inflating it by propping up inefficient market modalities and trends.

    The only action the government need take during a period of self-correction is to cut taxes. This accomplishes two things; it eases the burden felt by their constituents and it provides a catalyst for the self-correction process by putting more money back into the market without inflating the currency.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Do you realize the article you posted makes the case that a program started during the New Deal was used to create this financial crisis? That is exactly what I have been saying. The intervention of government hinders the proper correction that would occur in the market if left alone.
    I dont' think the article concludes that at all.

    It was the inaction of the SEC - unenforced laws - that made the problem worse. Oversight failed b/c there was no oversight...no regulation. A tautology but accurate.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    and some will never figure it out!
    The entire civilized world has turned its collective back on letting markets 'self-correct' when the situation borders on ruin.

    Before an economic emergency can turn into a crippling depression, government steps in to right the situation.

    I don't think anyone sees a good thing in 25% unemployment, rampant poverty, attendant rises in crime or the like as palatable results from a self-correcting market.

    So we do something about it.

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