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Thread: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

  1. #101
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonslayer View Post
    We are leaving a government which has record high spending and record high borrowing, We could feed and house most of America each month for the cost of what Bush borrowed and spent.
    No we couldn't, not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonslayer View Post
    We are sagging under Bush's debt and you try to shift the problem to Obama.
    Our current debt is a problem no doubt. However, Obama shifted the problem to Obama, he won, remember. On January 20th it became his problem by his own choosing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonslayer View Post
    Obama is human, but at least wait and see before you attack. I know the Right Wingers are looking to attack when there is no reason to attack.
    Can you let us know when we can criticize Obama? Send out a memo or something? Are people supposed to keep mum about EVERYTHING he does or just certain things?
    From the ashes.

  2. #102
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    The country was already headed in the direction of recovery thanks to the New Deal policies initiated by FDR. There’s no doubt the War made the recovery occur much faster.

    When FDR had the new deal passed in 1932, the 1932-33 unemployment rate was 23.6-24.9%. When WWII started 1941-42 the unemployment rate was 9.9-4.7%.

    How is that not a vindication of the FDR’s new deal?

    Now let’s look at the gross national product in those years as well. GNP before and after the New Deal in 1932:

    Table 2:1929 1931 1933 1937 1938 1940
    Real GNP 101.4 84.3 68.3 103.9 103.7 113.0
    in 1929 dollars
    (Please match up the #s with the years)
    New Deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    How is that kind of progress not a defense of the efficacy of the New Deal for pulling us out of the Depression?
    Or the country was headed in the direction of recovery IN SPITE OF the new deal. Then the war broke out, several programs were struck down and others made obsolete, the recovery ramped up to the rate it should have been if not hindered by government interference.
    From the ashes.

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    joke Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Can you let us know when we can criticize Obama? Send out a memo or something? Are people supposed to keep mum about EVERYTHING he does or just certain things?
    If you haven't noticed, Phoenix, Obama is now listed among several other mythical gods.

    There is Zeus - supreme god, Hades - god of underworld, Athena - goddess of war, and Obama - god of the USA..however, word had it that Obama is planing on pulling a 'coup', and taking over Zeus - the Media, along with Hades, are along in the scheme.
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former" - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Or the country was headed in the direction of recovery IN SPITE OF the new deal. Then the war broke out, several programs were struck down and others made obsolete, the recovery ramped up to the rate it should have been if not hindered by government interference.
    A recovery in spite of the New Deal?

    The government saved the capitalist free market with the New Deal.

    HIstory does repeat itself b/c here we are again in 2008 saving Capitalism from its own excesses.

    When capitalism, laissez faire econ, is left to its own designs, it is crushed under its own weight--hoarding, monopolies, inefficiency. We need the government in the market the way football needs referees.

    Without regulation, anti-trust laws, and oversight, the 'free market' collapses.

  5. #105
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    A recovery in spite of the New Deal?

    The government saved the capitalist free market with the New Deal.

    HIstory does repeat itself b/c here we are again in 2008 saving Capitalism from its own excesses.

    When capitalism, laissez faire econ, is left to its own designs, it is crushed under its own weight--hoarding, monopolies, inefficiency. We need the government in the market the way football needs referees.

    Without regulation, anti-trust laws, and oversight, the 'free market' collapses.
    Please provide proof for your claims.

    Right now it sounds like your yapping party line nonsense.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    A recovery in spite of the New Deal?

    The government saved the capitalist free market with the New Deal.

    HIstory does repeat itself b/c here we are again in 2008 saving Capitalism from its own excesses.

    When capitalism, laissez faire econ, is left to its own designs, it is crushed under its own weight--hoarding, monopolies, inefficiency. We need the government in the market the way football needs referees.

    Without regulation, anti-trust laws, and oversight, the 'free market' collapses.
    Our economy is far from laissez faire. It certainly isn't left to it's own designs.
    I'll explain a little later but it's 5:00pm and I to get to a program for my daughter.
    From the ashes.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Thank you Dolly and Decker for bringing some historical facts into the debate. The Herritage foundation propaganda utterly falls apart under its scrutiny, as you have illustrated.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

  8. #108
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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Okay here we go.

    I bold the programs that came out of the New deal and give definitive evidence that shows our economy is neither laissez faire nor a free market. Also to disprove HDL's claims.

    The first concept is fiat money. This allows the government (and only the government in our system) to set the standard of currency and the amount of currency in circulation. That allows the government to set the interest rates that the banks use on their whims.

    The next up is the FDIC. While it seems like a great idea, it has lingering consequences that will be explained later. I mention it here because it is an intervention in the market that eliminated our economy as laissez faire.

    Next is Fannie Mae. If no other example existed this is a big one to disprove a free market. It is a government program with the specific intent to circumvent free market ideals. This program will back people to get loans that the free market would not otherwise support.

    Let's start after the .com boom crashed.
    Keep in mind that today's politicians are more interested in the appearance of things to get elected rather than the reality that faces them.
    The feds start lowering the interest rates to "prevent a recession". Now laissez faire supporters understand that the economy works in cycles and the recession should have been allowed to run it's course unfetered to allow the bad businesses to be eliminated. The feds in an effort to keep the economy from going sour "on their watch" started using the fiat money system to lower interest rates. They do this by giving the banks more money to use.
    Enter Fractional-reserve banking notice it's not bolded. It's a naturally occurring economic concept. You may not have realized it but banks don't keep the money on hand to cover all their deposits. When you hear that a "run" has been made on a bank that means lots of people came at one time and asked for their money. The natural occurrence of this means a bank has to weigh the benefits of lending out more money with the ability to remain solvent. The more times they lend the money out the easier it is to become insolvent. Historically banks would even engineer runs against each other to put banks out of business. Enter the FDIC. Since the government guarantees part of our money (using our money BTW ...huh?) they now have a vested interest in preventing a run on banks and will take steps necessary to prevent it. This means that banks can loan out more than they would be inclined to naturally because the know they have the protection of the government.
    Now lets put all this together and relate it to today.
    Government lowers interest rates, this gives the banks more money to lend. They want to lend more money because at the lower rates they need to lend more dollars (volume) to make money.
    Housing, a historic "always gainer" seems a good investment.
    Politicians like housing because helping people get a house looks good on your resume. So fannie mae eases the requirements to buy loans from banks. As if this weren't enough they also pass laws that state banks should lend to unworthy persons. Don't worry, we'll buy the loans.
    So with more people able to buy houses,(an increase in demand) house prices soar, making them better investments and a bubble is created because the cycle continues.
    Now government starts to fear inflation. That is what happens when too much fiat money is on the market. Inflation is bad for business for politicians because it takes money out of the people's pockets. So they use the fiat money to raise interest rates. (take money out of the market) Now many people that took out adjustable rate loans and are maxed out on their credit, can't afford their house, and the tower starts to crumble.

    Now to fix the problem the feds have lowered interest rates to the point they can't lower them anymore and are going to attempt to put 1 trillion MORE dollars on the market. It's a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately since almost all the people in the United States attend public school, and have been indoctrinated by our government to believe that FDR and his big government programs were the savior of the country we are destined to follow this path, I am afraid.
    From the ashes.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Please provide proof for your claims.

    Right now it sounds like your yapping party line nonsense.
    I've taken the time to read about the causes of the Great Depression. It's an extremely complex topic. Here're are some of the main reasons the country's economy crashed:

    The politics/economics dominating the years prior to the Great Depression were Republican & laissez faire. Low taxes, invisible regulation of business and free-wheeling capitalism. Harding, Coolidge and Hoover followed that playbook which played to the interests robber baron/wall street elites. Wealth and income inequality were extreme.

    IN the 1920s 600 banks a year were failing. Farmland was losing its value by almost half. Although worker productivity rises some 43% in the decade, the income goes almost solely to the top 1%. Stocks take off in value and taxes on the wealthy drop. Regulation of business is invisible. Hoover took office in 1929 and offered some gov. help but it was too little, too late.

    After years of small government laissez faire approach, the US economy crashed. In its wake, destitution to the tune of 25%+ unemployment.

    That's what happens on the watch of Republicans with their small government, laissez faire politics/economics.

    Along comes FDR using Keynesian spending policies: the economy rose in 5 out of 7 years prior to the war. The gov. goes off of the gold standard (about time) and creates jobs with the CCC, TVA...FDR resdistributes much wealth from the elites to the rest of the population and the standard of living improves, unemployment shrinks, GDP/GNP improves and the only setback occurs in 1938 when he tries to placate his opponents with the failed policies of his Republican predecessors. There's a time and place for balanced budgets and 1938/USA was not one of those times or places.

    The Great Depression was worldwide. The first countries to rise out of the GD were those that adopted governmental spending - Germany, Great Britain, Sweden.

    Since the US has adopted governmental spending policies to correct the errors of the free market, the USA has not had a single depression.

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    Re: Obama to Repeat FDR's Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Okay here we go.

    I bold the programs that came out of the New deal and give definitive evidence that shows our economy is neither laissez faire nor a free market. Also to disprove HDL's claims.

    The first concept is fiat money. This allows the government (and only the government in our system) to set the standard of currency and the amount of currency in circulation. That allows the government to set the interest rates that the banks use on their whims.

    The next up is the FDIC. While it seems like a great idea, it has lingering consequences that will be explained later. I mention it here because it is an intervention in the market that eliminated our economy as laissez faire.

    Next is Fannie Mae. If no other example existed this is a big one to disprove a free market. It is a government program with the specific intent to circumvent free market ideals. This program will back people to get loans that the free market would not otherwise support.

    Let's start after the .com boom crashed.
    Keep in mind that today's politicians are more interested in the appearance of things to get elected rather than the reality that faces them.
    The feds start lowering the interest rates to "prevent a recession". Now laissez faire supporters understand that the economy works in cycles and the recession should have been allowed to run it's course unfetered to allow the bad businesses to be eliminated. The feds in an effort to keep the economy from going sour "on their watch" started using the fiat money system to lower interest rates. They do this by giving the banks more money to use.
    Enter Fractional-reserve banking notice it's not bolded. It's a naturally occurring economic concept. You may not have realized it but banks don't keep the money on hand to cover all their deposits. When you hear that a "run" has been made on a bank that means lots of people came at one time and asked for their money. The natural occurrence of this means a bank has to weigh the benefits of lending out more money with the ability to remain solvent. The more times they lend the money out the easier it is to become insolvent. Historically banks would even engineer runs against each other to put banks out of business. Enter the FDIC. Since the government guarantees part of our money (using our money BTW ...huh?) they now have a vested interest in preventing a run on banks and will take steps necessary to prevent it. This means that banks can loan out more than they would be inclined to naturally because the know they have the protection of the government.
    Now lets put all this together and relate it to today.
    Government lowers interest rates, this gives the banks more money to lend. They want to lend more money because at the lower rates they need to lend more dollars (volume) to make money.
    Housing, a historic "always gainer" seems a good investment.
    Politicians like housing because helping people get a house looks good on your resume. So fannie mae eases the requirements to buy loans from banks. As if this weren't enough they also pass laws that state banks should lend to unworthy persons. Don't worry, we'll buy the loans.
    So with more people able to buy houses,(an increase in demand) house prices soar, making them better investments and a bubble is created because the cycle continues.
    Now government starts to fear inflation. That is what happens when too much fiat money is on the market. Inflation is bad for business for politicians because it takes money out of the people's pockets. So they use the fiat money to raise interest rates. (take money out of the market) Now many people that took out adjustable rate loans and are maxed out on their credit, can't afford their house, and the tower starts to crumble.

    Now to fix the problem the feds have lowered interest rates to the point they can't lower them anymore and are going to attempt to put 1 trillion MORE dollars on the market. It's a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately since almost all the people in the United States attend public school, and have been indoctrinated by our government to believe that FDR and his big government programs were the savior of the country we are destined to follow this path, I am afraid.
    FDR did save the country. He also helped expand the middle class with his gov. programs.

    You are mischaracterizing the Freddie/Fannie scandal. The problem started when LBJ privatized FDR's program (when Freddie was created to compete with Fannie). The companies bought mortgages from banks and resold them to new investors.

    Enter GW Bush and Phil Gramm. After 9/11, to fund both his wars and unheard of giant tax cuts, Bush removed the reserve requirement from Freddie/Fannie so that more bargained basement loans could be made to keep the economy humming. Bush also preempted state oversight laws for predatory lenders with federal laws...unenforced federal laws.

    Low taxes and no regulatory oversight. Sounds familiar? Like the 1920s.

    Phil Gramm, he wrote the book and the law on credit default swaps freeing markets/institutions from oversight. "Prior to its passage, they say, banks underwrote mortgages and were responsible for the risks involved. Now, through the use of [CDSs]-which in theory insure the banks against bad debts-those risks are passed along to insurance companies and other investors," wrote Texas Observer.

    How does this relate to Lehman's bankruptcy? "[CDSs] were a key factor in encouraging lenders to feel they could make loans without knowing the risks or whether the loan would be paid back. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act freed them of federal oversight," according to Texas Monthly. And it was due to these CDSs that Wall Street held an emergency session yesterday to try to minimize the damage of Lehman's CDSs and other derivatives. Unfortunately, this session did not produce much thanks to the built-in lack of knowledge of the risks in these transactions that Gramm's legislation ensured.
    100 Year Crash: McCain advisor spurred $62 trillion derivatives market that will swamp global markets - BloggingStocks

    Greed and corruption ran rampant. Foreign countries unwittingly kept the scheme alive buying the repackage/bundled bad mortgages and now we have all this.

    That's the genesis of the problem...not fiat money or gold standards or the like.

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