View Poll Results: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

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Thread: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    Cowardice cannot be the issue for the pilots because Hamas does not have anti-aircraft guns or missiles. Flying bombing missions over Gaza is no more dangerous than flying a shuttle out of LAX.

    thank you for this gem of brutal reality.
    Makes me sick.

  2. #12
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    Cowardice cannot be the issue for the pilots because Hamas does not have anti-aircraft guns or missiles. Flying bombing missions over Gaza is no more dangerous than flying a shuttle out of LAX.

    Also, these are high-ranking officers who have served for decades. These aren't privates who deserted the first time they came under fire. The pilots are the elite of the IDF, as are the commandos, who wrote, "We shall no longer corrupt our moral character in missions of oppression." Those aren't the words of cowards - they're throwing away decades-long careers to make a moral stand.

    Using phrases like "pathetic pussy punk ass" is really not appropriate when discussing a Brigadier General like Yiftah Spector who has served his country for his entire life, including bombing a nuclear reactor in Iraq - a country with a LOT of anti-aircraft guns.

    The signatories of the pilots' letter are:

    Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat,
    Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel
    David Yisraeli,Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel
    Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir,
    Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major
    Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven,
    Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain
    Allon, Captain Amnon

    Of the highest ranking one, Yiftah Spector, we read:

    "The most outstanding name among those who signed is that
    of Yiftah Spector, a Brigadier General in the reserves. Spector is a
    mythological pilot in the Air Force, who commanded squadrons and
    bases, participated in the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq,
    and was a candidate for corps commander. Young pilots are raised on
    battle stories about Spector and on books that he himself wrote. He
    still flies in the Air Force as a trainer in the reserves for the
    flight school."


    Also, we read:

    "According to those who signed the letter, 'gray refusal' is already
    widespread in the Air Force, and includes even pilots in the standing
    army. There are dozens of pilots who refuse to participate in
    assassinations, but get out of them quietly in private arrangements
    with the commander of the squadron."


    Source: Israeli Brigadier General Yiftah Spector and A Few Good Men : LA IMC
    Seeing how it is the internet people can say what ever they want. So someone can claim to be a pilot or a general. People turn on the military for all sorts of reason,some do it for political reasons,some do it to be famous and some do it out of hatred.


    No. Actually the fact they didn't renounce their citizenship and leave military service just proves that they want to change Israel. This is also why the commandos capitalized the word "defense" in Israeli Defense Force.
    No they want to be moochers like the Orthadox jews and others who weasel out of service.
    They want to change the IDF back to a defensive force.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #13
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Seeing how it is the internet people can say what ever they want. So someone can claim to be a pilot or a general.
    Give it up, Jamesrage. Your arguments were weak before, but now they are getting absurd.

    Yiftah Spector, mythological pilot in the Air Force, who commanded squadrons and bases, participated in the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq, and was a candidate for corps commander, is just "claiming" to be a pilot and a general???

    Right. Just like George Bush claims to have been president for the last eight years. If we stopped believing everything we read on the internet and drove to Washington, we would find some completely different person in the Oval Office - one with less internet exposure than that impostor Bush.

    Look up the names on this list before coming up with any more whoppers like that last one, please. Even I - an American - know who Spector is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    The signatories of the pilots' letter are:

    Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat,
    Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel
    David Yisraeli,Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel
    Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir,
    Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major
    Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven,
    Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain
    Allon, Captain Amnon

    Of the highest ranking one, Yiftah Spector, we read:

    "The most outstanding name among those who signed is that
    of Yiftah Spector, a Brigadier General in the reserves. Spector is a
    mythological pilot in the Air Force, who commanded squadrons and
    bases, participated in the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq,
    and was a candidate for corps commander. Young pilots are raised on
    battle stories about Spector and on books that he himself wrote. He
    still flies in the Air Force as a trainer in the reserves for the
    flight school."
    Last edited by Onion Eater; 01-16-09 at 03:27 PM.
    Is the following quote reckless in the extreme? Then read my 2008 paper about monetary theory:
    http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/in...e_collapse.php
    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    No tax raises needed, just have the federal government spend the money into existence.

  4. #14
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Every human being must weigh the moral consequences and implication of their actions whether a soldier, public servant, military commander, politician or private citizen. In a fundamental way, it is the place of a solider to consider what wars to fight. If given an order completely immoral, completely contrary to humanity and completely without purpose he is morally obligated to disobey it.
    If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.
    As a soldier, it isn't his place to decide on the other issues you list.

  5. #15
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.
    As a soldier, it isn't his place to decide on the other issues you list.
    Wrong. If given an illegal order then a soldier must obey it and THEN make a report on it. That is the legal way of doing it. It is his duty to obey the orders because of the oath that he took.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  6. #16
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    I can understand the zoomie flyboys not wanting to drop a JDAM on an area that might have civilians nearby. Thats within their right if they believe they are being asked to drop on civilians intentionally. When they go before a court martial board they can argue their actions and maybe win.

    The commando's are SOL. As a ground element they are a surgical force which has the flexibility to engage or not engage based on what they see directly. Defense of an area may also mean pro-active combat. If you see someone making weapon emplacements, marking your patrol schedules, and pacing off distances for a mortar pit then removing those still falls well within the dialogue of "defense".

    As a commando, you volunteered for that slot and you knew that you would be making secret treks across "the wire". Commando's really don't have any other use. But more importantly, you can't refuse to fight past a certain point based on political beliefs. The military isn't a democracy. The country has precedent for an invasion which kills any chance you have during a military court.

    Of course, that would explain the reason for an open letter sent to the public. They're trying to get public sympathy to help bolster their case through public pressure on the politicians.

    Shame that they're only reserves.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or itís gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.
    As a soldier, it isn't his place to decide on the other issues you list.
    As a soldier's duties as defined by the state no. As a human being, yes. A solider is a human being with all of the moral obligations thereof.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

  8. #18
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    As a soldier's duties as defined by the state no. As a human being, yes. A solider is a human being with all of the moral obligations thereof.
    And in the states eyes it is duty to carry out the orders weather he likes it or not. In the states eyes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #19
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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    The commando's are SOL. As a ground element they are a surgical force which has the flexibility to engage or not engage based on what they see directly. Defense of an area may also mean pro-active combat. If you see someone making weapon emplacements, marking your patrol schedules, and pacing off distances for a mortar pit then removing those still falls well within the dialogue of "defense".
    You are thinking in terms if the U.S. military. This is an accurate description of how our commandos operate in Iraq.

    But the idea that Israeli commandos go into Gaza to look for people planting IEDs or pacing off distances for a mortar crew is a bit naive. For one thing, Israel is out of range of mortars.

    IDF commandos are in Gaza for one purpose and one purpose only: They are going to assassinate someone. They whack the guy and get out. That's all.

    Of course, most Israeli assassinations are now carried out by helicopter pilots firing Hellfire missiles at civilian automobiles or pedestrians. But that requires visually identifying the target from the air and, if the target is staying inside buildings, it is sometimes still necessary to send in commandos.

    The other option, of course, is just to take out the entire building. For instance, in 2002, the IDF dropped a GBU-24 on an apartment building in the middle of the night, which killed eight children and seven adults, and injured over 150 other people. You can read about this attack at Matar et al v. Dichter.
    Is the following quote reckless in the extreme? Then read my 2008 paper about monetary theory:
    http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/in...e_collapse.php
    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    No tax raises needed, just have the federal government spend the money into existence.

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    Re: Are the Israeli refuseniks (conscientious objectors) right or wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And in the states eyes it is duty to carry out the orders weather he likes it or not.
    And the state is the highest authority and the true author of morality? Or could the state be wrong on a given issue?
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

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