View Poll Results: Should the pro-Israeli lobby group AIPAC be outlawed in the US?

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  • yes

    11 29.73%
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    26 70.27%
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Thread: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Uh, what?

    This isn't a matter of opinion or of what seems to make sense to you - it's a matter of fact. AIPAC doesn't make campaign contributions, period. I'm sorry that that doesn't fit into your narrative, but them's the breaks.
    I'm not going to play word games with you.

    This conversation is over!

  2. #22
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    I have long been a fan of removing the ability of any artificial person to lobby govt at any level. So, I say why stop at lobbies for foreign countries?

    From a game theory perspective it breaks the game. Govt becomes more beholden to lobbying groups than to its actual electorate or real persons.

    I think lobbying groups should have to lobby the electorate directly. This would serve to lessen the impact of rational ignorance that allows and fosters poor govt actions and policies.
    I may be wrong.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I have long been a fan of removing the ability of any artificial person to lobby govt at any level. So, I say why stop at lobbies for foreign countries?

    From a game theory perspective it breaks the game. Govt becomes more beholden to lobbying groups than to its actual electorate or real persons.

    I think lobbying groups should have to lobby the electorate directly. This would serve to lessen the impact of rational ignorance that allows and fosters poor govt actions and policies.
    Why stop there?

    Is there any way we can repeal the law that gives corporations the same rights as living, breathing, human citizens.

  4. #24
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Alright, have it your way.

    The difference is:
    • American interest groups contacting their elected representatives about issues important this country.
    • Alien groups contacting another country's leaders that DO NOT represent them about issues important to their country.
    I can live with the American lobby groups as being a necessary evil in this country. I don't believe in other nations trying to dilute my Constitutional right to representation by having lobby groups in this country. If they want to influence my leaders, they can do it at a summit meeting.

    ...Except it's not an alien group, and the people contacting their representatives are US citizens who have all the same rights as you do. You just want them to be silenced because you don't agree with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I'm not going to play word games with you.

    This conversation is over!
    I think I've heard this refrain from you before...
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I have long been a fan of removing the ability of any artificial person to lobby govt at any level. So, I say why stop at lobbies for foreign countries?

    From a game theory perspective it breaks the game. Govt becomes more beholden to lobbying groups than to its actual electorate or real persons.

    I think lobbying groups should have to lobby the electorate directly. This would serve to lessen the impact of rational ignorance that allows and fosters poor govt actions and policies.
    It's not the artificial persons that are doing the lobbying, it's US citizens employed by that artificial person:

    Lobbying Spending Database-American Israel Public Affairs Cmte, 2008 | OpenSecrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Why stop there?

    Is there any way we can repeal the law that gives corporations the same rights as living, breathing, human citizens.
    Corporations don't have the same rights as citizens.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  6. #26
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It's not the artificial persons that are doing the lobbying, it's US citizens employed by that artificial person...
    Now that really is splitting hairs. Artificial person don't do anything at all (in that sense) since they are merely abstractions. But, as I am sure you know, employers are responsible for the authorized actions their employees take. And in that sense, artificial persons do quite a number of things.
    I may be wrong.

  7. #27
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Now that really is splitting hairs. Artificial person don't do anything at all (in that sense) since they are merely abstractions. But, as I am sure you know, employers are responsible for the authorized actions their employees take. And in that sense, artificial persons do quite a number of things.
    I don't mean to be splitting hairs, I guess my point is just that I don't think it's possible to really distinguish between the two in this situation.

    Say a factory worker is self-motivated to travel to DC to advocate for the auto bailout. Everyone would seem to agree that this is well within the right to petition government.

    -What if the company offered to provide transportation for any employees who wished to go to DC?
    -What it the company sent out a memo to all employees explaining their stance on the issue?
    -What if the memo urged employees to call their representatives and share their thoughts?
    -What if managers from the company wanted to travel to DC to state their case?
    -What if the VP for Public Relations went there to do the same thing?
    -What if the VP for Public Relations took his entire team and prepared presentations for Congress members in order to help them understand how important the bailout is to the company?

    All of those things appear to be on the same spectrum to me, and I find it difficult to draw a line between which are acceptable and which are not.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  8. #28
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Banned no.

    Increased surveillance on them? Mandatory.

    Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Any lobby for a foreign group or country should have its surevillance increased.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #29
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Banned no.

    Increased surveillance on them? Mandatory.

    Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    NO THATS COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND THE UN OUTLAWS THAT!!! [/billo]


    Any lobby for a foreign group or country should have its surevillance increased.
    Again, they're "a lobby for a foreign country" in the same way that groups supporting immigration reform are lobbyists for Mexico and Catholic Charities is a lobbyist for the Vatican.

    (Which is to say that they are advocating for increased support for their members in the US and abroad, but are comprised entirely of and funded entirely by US citizens.)
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #30
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    Re: Should AIPAC be outlawed in US?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, they're "a lobby for a foreign country" in the same way that groups supporting immigration reform are lobbyists for Mexico and Catholic Charities is a lobbyist for the Vatican.
    Fine. Organizations with histories of spying on the US should have surveillance ramped up on their activities. The AIPAC has two known incidents of spying on sensitive US programs. That is unacceptable.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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