View Poll Results: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

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Thread: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

  1. #21
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    I can't call myself a "patriot" for many reasons. I do not subscribe to a love of my "nation" as many people do. I would not die to uphold the "honor" of my nation, nor would I kill for that "honor".

    That being said, I am decidedly loyal to the people of my nation. I would fight for their saftey and security. I think at some point, our nation, and especially those in charge of it, has forgotten where it's loyalties should lie: with the people. Instead our nation has decided to expand it's authority in such a way to actively ignore the interests of the people in order to achieve globalistic goals.

    I think that we have been trained to become loyal to the symbolic representations of "nation", such as the pledge to the flag, instead of being trained to care about the people of that nation.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If your country stops producing its own goods by outsourcing their manufacturing,
    Which goods are these? Those produced by private companies such as cars? Or those which are produced elsewhere for a cheaper price? Unless the government is producing them then they are by no means the country's goods. They are the goods sold by private citizens or companies which you have 0 control over where and who produces them.

    doesn't adequately secure their own border,
    Your opinion

    let anyone just come across the border,
    Your opinion

    lets other nations and foreign companies run their ports,
    And what exactly is 'unpatriotic' about something which has been going on for centuries? Do you get angry when the wrapper for your McDonalds is made in China? Private companies operating ports is nothing new. The larger the operator the more trade that can be done through a port. This benefits America. Just because you think that being American gets you a free pass does not mean everyone else does. Merit over nationality =/= unpatriotic.

    lets other countries manufacture weapons for us and many
    The U.S. is the world's top weapons EXPORTER so I don't know where you got this from.

    other things then it is obvious that globalism/internationalism conflicts with patriotism/nationalism since it does not benefit us.
    Really? Globalism has been in full force for 50 years. How exactly has it not benefited us considering we're still the world's ONLY superpower?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #23
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    I think the OP's original post makes clear that the globalism he was addressing wasn't merely tearing down trade barriers and I think that because he uses the word internationalism which I interpret to mean a deference to international institutions and international groups and a preference for tearing down national borders in favor of international governance.

    Such a deference and preference inherently requires abandoning a nation's national character, values, and most importantly, it's national institutions. And that, I think, necessarily means abandoning your patriotism.

  4. #24
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Pretty much a nationalist and patriot here. Unfortunately, nationalism has had its political definition changed to something than it once was before. It used to mean the interests of the nation of the USA. The nation represented the people. It meant we put the USA first and the rest of the world second and that included our economics. You could be a nationalist and still pursue a strong globally diverse economy.

    Globalism isn't merely economics but has reached into our political views as well. The UN and its continued attempts to overshadow federal and state laws in the US is a good example.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or itís gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Globalism isn't merely economics but has reached into our political views as well. The UN and its continued attempts to overshadow federal and state laws in the US is a good example.
    Really. Which attempts would those be? Please name one UN resolution that the US is forced to abide by, without the consent of our federal government.
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Really. Which attempts would those be? Please name one UN resolution that the US is forced to abide by, without the consent of our federal government.
    You missunderstand what I mean by overshadowing. It means creating a global rule/law/policy that all federal governments sign onto. Once the federal government signs on, all conflicting state laws are overriden. Often these policies are very restrictive and do not require a government to hold a vote or poll from its population.

    Every attempt (Kiyoto/AWG related, religion, disarmament, UNGC, etc) have been shot down and vetoed or just not signed despite pressure from other nations. And thats a good thing.
    Freedom is... never more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or itís gone and gone for a long, long time- Ronald Reagan

  7. #27
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If your country stops producing its own goods by outsourcing their manufacturing, doesn't adequately secure their own border, let anyone just come across the border, lets other nations and foreign companies run their ports, lets other countries manufacture weapons for us and many other things then it is obvious that globalism/internationalism conflicts with patriotism/nationalism since it does not benefit us.
    Since when was internationalism about lack of secured borders and complete freedom of travel?

    Outsourcing manufacturing is not necessarily a bad thing. If a country can make a product better and cheaper, why shouldn't we outsource it? After all, then we get to enjoy superior products at better prices. Furthermore, your argument seems very Ludite. The US, along with the rest of the developed world is move away from blue collar manufacturing. This is a normal progression. We took manufacturing jobs from Europe. They took them back during the Marshall plan. Japan took manufacturing jobs during the 80s. How did countries react? By building knowledge economies. I quite frankly don't see how this is a bad thing outside of a massive natural disaster.

    Explain to me how there is a threat by a foreign country running your ports. Why the hell would a company who just invested billions of dollars want to risk their investment? That doesn't make an ounce of sense.

    Explain to me how it is patriotic to make your citizens pay more for inferior goods, cut off large growth sectors in your economy tied to the export market, and curtail investment that will further expand your economy.

    I'm still waiting for how more sovereignty always equates to a better outcome.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057878838-post5.html
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  8. #28
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I think the OP's original post makes clear that the globalism he was addressing wasn't merely tearing down trade barriers and I think that because he uses the word internationalism which I interpret to mean a deference to international institutions and international groups and a preference for tearing down national borders in favor of international governance.
    James attempted this argument earlier. He failed to defend it.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057878838-post5.html

    There are several examples of where MORE sovereignty results in worse outcomes for the country and where less sovereignty results in better outcomes.

    Such a deference and preference inherently requires abandoning a nation's national character, values, and most importantly, it's national institutions. And that, I think, necessarily means abandoning your patriotism.
    Character, values and national institutions? How does deference on weapons treaties change our character, values and national institutions? How does agreeing to the Millennium Development Goals change our character, values and national institutions? How does agreeing to free trade change our character, values and national institutions?

    Nationalism is "My country right or wrong"
    Patriotism is "My country deserves better"

    Getting out of free trade would instantly reduce our economy by a direct 11%. God knows how much indirectly. That ain't better.
    Getting out of weapons treaties would definitely do our country worse.

    People confuse nationalism with patriotism all of the time.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #29
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Outsourcing manufacturing is not necessarily a bad thing. If a country can make a product better and cheaper, why shouldn't we outsource it?
    What if we go to war with that country or one their allies? Will they still make things for us?


    The US, along with the rest of the developed world is move away from blue collar manufacturing.
    Thats because we allowed companies to outsource to countries were they can exploit people for cheaper prices. Had our politicians not tossed the salads of disloyal anti-American businesses, we and the rest of the world still have a lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs.

    Explain to me how there is a threat by a foreign country running your ports. Why the hell would a company who just invested billions of dollars want to risk their investment? That doesn't make an ounce of sense.
    So if Mexico wanted to secure our southern border you would have no problem? Only a internationalist/globalist piece of **** would see no problem with letting another country or foreign company run our ports and borders.

    Explain to me how it is patriotic to make your citizens pay more for inferior goods, cut off large growth sectors in your economy tied to the export market, and curtail investment that will further expand your economy.
    Explain to me how it is patriotic to ship all your manufacturing jobs to other countries at the expense of American workers. Explain how is it patriotic to let other nations produce our **** when we have Americans who are capable of doing those things and explain how we won't be crippled if we go to war with those countries or their allies that manufacture our ****?

    I'm still waiting for how more sovereignty always equates to a better outcome.
    How is selling your sovereignty down the river equal a better outcome for your country?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  10. #30
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    Re: Can you be patriotic and a globalist/internationalist at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What if we go to war with that country or one their allies? Will they still make things for us?
    I don't think you are quite aware of how the global market works. Companies are not controlled like how Communist countries are run. We still have US and Western countries trading with Iran despite heavy sanctions. Just because a company's location of headquarters is engaged in war with us doesn't mean they won't sell us products. And you forget how companies can influence conflicts. The heads of several large firms directly phoned the leaders of Pakistan and India during the last major crisis to inform them of the consequences of open conflict: aka, no more FDI. That played a significant role in tampering down the hostility. Integration of economies reduces chances of war. This is a very good thing.

    Cheaper, superior quality products helps the US as it helps everyone who trades. We get cheap clothes from Mexico, Mexico in turn buys relatively cheap and superior planes from America. Win-win on both sides. Trade is effectively magic as it turns products like sheep into oil.

    Thats because we allowed companies to outsource to countries were they can exploit people for cheaper prices. Had our politicians not tossed the salads of disloyal anti-American businesses, we and the rest of the world still have a lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs.
    So you are okay with paying higher prices for inferior goods? By the way, a great many technological products you use and that we rely upon for our daily lives came directly from outsourcing production. By outsourcing production, companies in Japan and elsewhere were able to improve upon the process and make better products. Televisions underwent serious improvements once the Japanese figured out how to do it. Explain to me how business is disloyal when it primary purpose it increase shareholder wealth, and when those shareholders are primarily Americans. And the only way we'd still have lots of blue collar manufacturing jobs is if we were North Korea, adamant is preventing imports. We'd have poor quality products at high prices. You'd have to effectively suspend free market capitalism to maintain lots of blue collar jobs. Banning automation would be primary. Many jobs have been lost due to technology.

    You sound a lot like a Luddite.

    So if Mexico wanted to secure our southern border you would have no problem?
    Sure as that would involve primarily securing their northern border. I don't have a problem with states securing their own borders.

    Only a internationalist/globalist piece of **** would see no problem with letting another country or foreign company run our ports and borders.
    Because you say so? You still haven't answered my question.

    Why would a firm who spent billions of dollars on a massive investment be willing to throw it all away?

    Do you normally buy huge investments only to light them on fire? This goes for Sovereign Wealth funds as well. Only a moron would think that funds who just invested hundreds of billions of dollars would be willing to destroy that wealth. Do you normally burn your paychecks before cashing them?

    You seem to rely a lot on hate and I say so rather then actual argumentation.

    Explain to me how it is patriotic to ship all your manufacturing jobs to other countries at the expense of American workers.
    Come again? At expense of American workers? Do you really understand what you just said? I take you've never had any part in any business?

    American firms cannot compete with cheap labor. Therefore, they are going to go under. That results in not only the loss of manufacturing jobs (as well as a few other industries) but everyone who had a interest in that firm. Explain to me how it patriotic to let millions of American's investments to be reduced to nothing. And by terminating these workers when you can provide severance and money for retraining, you give these workers a much better chance then letting them go during bankruptcy when you can't help them at all.

    Furthermore, NAFTA has cost the American job market a mere 250,000 jobs total. That's fewer job losses then the normal structure of job losses annually.

    Outsourcing Not the Culprit in Manufacturing Job Loss | Web Exclusive | Automation World
    Technology Is a Major Cause of Job Loss: Offshoring Costs Americans Jobs, but Automation Is a Bigger Factor
    http://www.slp.org/res_state_htm/tech_jobloss.html
    Manufacturing job losses in China far surpass those in the United States. | Asia > East Asia from AllBusiness.com
    Manufacturing Jobs | Automation Causes Job Destruction | Control Design

    Read up. You should be attacking technology, not outsourcing.

    Guess how many workers you can fire when you replace them with machines?

    A hell of alot. Guess how many construction workers you can fire when you buy a big backhoe? Lots. Guess how many telephone operators you can fire when you replace them with a computer? Lots.

    What is real interesting is despite the mounting job losses in manufacturing, US exports of manufactured products has only gone up in terms of value. So really we are replacing workers with machines to produce high quality products that bring in lots of money.

    Explain how is it patriotic to let other nations produce our **** when we have Americans who are capable of doing those things and explain how we won't be crippled if we go to war with those countries or their allies that manufacture our ****?
    It's the traditional value system of America. Free Market Capitalism. We don't hire Americans do to those jobs because they aren't as efficient to earn a huge wage. An American worker sewing socks for minimum wage has to be 10X as efficient as a Thai working getting 1/10th their pay. If you don't like this, look at the USSR for what a country looks like when it refrains from trading. And we won't be crippled if we go to war. Aside from possibly oil, there isn't a single product that we cannot produce ourselves given sufficent time and that is absolutely vital. But oil isn't that big of an issue given the Saudis and their desire to keep us on their side.

    What you are blaming is economic progress.

    How is selling your sovereignty down the river equal a better outcome for your country?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057878838-post5.html

    Already addressed.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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