View Poll Results: Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

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  • Captivate

    10 9.26%
  • Convert

    36 33.33%
  • Kill

    29 26.85%
  • None of the Above

    43 39.81%
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    12 11.11%
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Thread: Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

  1. #351
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    Ahmed Shaheen's Avatar
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    Re: Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

    [QUOTE=walleye;1057894345]Everything I have used are words from the Koran, not "other peoples often biased opinions on it". I have quoted from the Koran. It most certainly is doctrine if Muhammed said to do it.[QUOTE]

    Quoted from Koran, you mean the "English" koran.
    Do you know that most of Arab-Muslims cant get the real moral from many verses in Koran without looking back into the "Interpretation Recourses" of Koran, not because its a hard-languaged book.
    Ancient Arabs were fluent "Real" Arabic speakers,but with the modern culture mixing, there is no country in the whole world speaks the real Arabic (The language of Koran), the Arabic nowadays is so freakin bad beside the real Arabic, although we took Arabic lessons in schools, but still cant recognize many of the Arabic words.

    So you cant come and translate a verse and claim that this is the real meaning of the verse, howcomes if many Arabs didn't got it.

  2. #352
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    Re: Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

    [QUOTE=Ahmed Shaheen;1057897315][QUOTE=walleye;1057894345]Everything I have used are words from the Koran, not "other peoples often biased opinions on it". I have quoted from the Koran. It most certainly is doctrine if Muhammed said to do it.

    Quoted from Koran, you mean the "English" koran.
    Do you know that most of Arab-Muslims cant get the real moral from many verses in Koran without looking back into the "Interpretation Recourses" of Koran, not because its a hard-languaged book.
    Ancient Arabs were fluent "Real" Arabic speakers,but with the modern culture mixing, there is no country in the whole world speaks the real Arabic (The language of Koran), the Arabic nowadays is so freakin bad beside the real Arabic, although we took Arabic lessons in schools, but still cant recognize many of the Arabic words.

    So you cant come and translate a verse and claim that this is the real meaning of the verse, howcomes if many Arabs didn't got it.
    The son of the Hamas leader who left Islam has had his life threatened. People who criticize Islam have had their lives threatened. Is that a "mistranslation" also?

  3. #353
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    Shew Shoe

    "Shew Shoe"
    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    The son of the Hamas leader who left Islam has had his life threatened. People who criticize Islam have had their lives threatened. Is that a "mistranslation" also?
    Assuming that the city state laws of hejaz as detailed in the qurayn are for the preservation of the quraysh tribe, which is the eponyous patriarchal lineage of ishmael, then dissent or rejection for that tradition by a citizen member is paramount to subversion or treason of the collective purpose.

    However, as such laws only apply to the (familial) tribal members within the city state of hejaz, and, in support of individualism as espoused by libertarianism, and, in the grand scheme of global culture, the strict focus on conformity and separatism is sufferable; that is, as long as the pretense for those traditions remains localized to hejaz, as the scope of design.

    Those which espouse to promote ishmaelism universally lack a legitimate perspective that the scope of design is localized to city state members of the quraysh tribe in hejaz.

    Understanding that contentious directives in the qurayn are consistent with a military campaign to organize the quraysh peoples under one polit and then to secure their persistence does not incriminate the means to preserve the identity and city state survival of the tribe.

    That understanding also does not exhonorate those who misconstrue the scope of localized design and seek to instantiate the traditions universally.

  4. #354
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    Re: Shew Shoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Monk-Eye View Post
    "Shew Shoe"
    Assuming that the city state laws of hejaz as detailed in the qurayn are for the preservation of the quraysh tribe, which is the eponyous patriarchal lineage of ishmael, then dissent or rejection for that tradition by a citizen member is paramount to subversion or treason of the collective purpose.

    However, as such laws only apply to the (familial) tribal members within the city state of hejaz, and, in support of individualism as espoused by libertarianism, and, in the grand scheme of global culture, the strict focus on conformity and separatism is sufferable; that is, as long as the pretense for those traditions remains localized to hejaz, as the scope of design.

    Those which espouse to promote ishmaelism universally lack a legitimate perspective that the scope of design is localized to city state members of the quraysh tribe in hejaz.

    Understanding that contentious directives in the qurayn are consistent with a military campaign to organize the quraysh peoples under one polit and then to secure their persistence does not incriminate the means to preserve the identity and city state survival of the tribe.

    That understanding also does not exhonorate those who misconstrue the scope of localized design and seek to instantiate the traditions universally.
    Are the muslims who demand the death of anyone who criticize Islam wrong? Are the muslims who demand people put to death for leaving Islam wrong?

  5. #355
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    Re: Shew Shoe

    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    Are the muslims who demand the death of anyone who criticize Islam wrong? Are the muslims who demand people put to death for leaving Islam wrong?
    That's called extremism. It exists in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and a bunch of other religions.

    I'm still waiting for your response to this post:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1057894632

    As well as the reasoning you had when you gave all those foul mistranslations.

  6. #356
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    Confined To Borders

    "Confined To Borders"
    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    Are the muslims who demand the death of anyone who criticize Islam wrong? Are the muslims who demand people put to death for leaving Islam wrong?
    Those which are not male lineal descendants of ishmael or married into the quraysh tribe are incorrect to presume that they are members of the tribe or that they are bound to the traditions; and, the penalty of quraysh laws only apply within the city state of hejaz.

  7. #357
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    Re: Shew Shoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    That's called extremism. It exists in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and a bunch of other religions.

    I'm still waiting for your response to this post:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1057894632

    As well as the reasoning you had when you gave all those foul mistranslations.
    You're wrong. Killing people for leaving Christianity is not condoned in the New Testament. It is condoned in the Koran.

    You're also wrong about "my own vile words". I have quoted from the Koran. You're mistaken. If the words are vile then the Koran is vile. I will stop short of calling you a liar, but if you persist with this error then I will not have to. It will be obvious to all.

    If what I quote are mistranslations then why are so many muslims mistranslating the same quotes I seem to be?
    Last edited by walleye; 01-24-09 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #358
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    Re: Confined To Borders

    Quote Originally Posted by Monk-Eye View Post
    "Confined To Borders"
    Those which are not male lineal descendants of ishmael or married into the quraysh tribe are incorrect to presume that they are members of the tribe or that they are bound to the traditions; and, the penalty of quraysh laws only apply within the city state of hejaz.
    Why is the son of a Hamas leader who became a Christian having his life threatened?

  9. #359
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    Re: Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

    A group of young Muslim apostates launches a campaign today, the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on America, to make it easier to renounce Islam.

    The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.

    The Committee for Ex-Muslims promises to campaign for freedom of religion but has already upset the Islamic and political Establishments for stirring tensions among the million-strong Muslim community in the Netherlands.

    Related Links
    'Whoever changes religion – kill him'
    Ehsan Jami, the committee’s founder, who rejected Islam after the attack on the twin towers in 2001, has become the most talked-about public figure in the Netherlands. He has been forced into hiding after a series of death threats and a recent attack.

    The threats are taken seriously after the murder in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, an antiimmigration politician, and in 2004 of Theo Van Gogh, an antiIslam film-maker.

    Speaking to The Times at a secret location before the committee’s launch today, the Labour Party councillor said that the movement would declare war on radical Islam. Similar organisations campaigning for reform of the religion have sprung up across Europe and representatives from Britain and Germany will join the launch in The Hague today.

    “Sharia schools say that they will kill the ones who leave Islam. In the West people get threatened, thrown out of their family, beaten up,” Mr Jami said. “In Islam you are born Muslim. You do not even choose to be Muslim. We want that to change, so that people are free to choose who they want to be and what they want to believe in.”

    Mr Jami, 22, who has abandoned his studies as his political career has taken off, denied that the choice of September 11 was deliberately provocative towards the Islamic Establishment. “We chose the date because we want to make a clear statement that we no longer tolerate the intolerence of Islam, the terrorist attacks,” he said.

    “In 1965 the Church in Holland made a declaration that freedom of conscience is above hanging on to religion, so you can choose whether you are going to be a Christian or not. What we are seeking is the same thing for Islam.”

    Mr Jami, who has compared the rise of radical Islam to the threat from Nazism in the 1930s, is receiving only lukewarm support from his party which traditionally relies upon Muslim votes. His outspoken attack on radical Islam has led to a prelaunch walk-out from fellow committee founder Loubna Berrada, who herself rejected Islam.

    She said: “I don’t wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened.”

    There have been suggestions that Mr Jami might defect to the right-wing Freedom Party, led by Geert Wilders, the most outspoken politician in the Netherlands, who has called for the Koran to be banned. But Mr Jami said: “I have respect for Wilders but we do not have the same ideology. I am for the freedom of religion.

    “Banning something is not going to help. I am the opposite – everyone should read the Koran.” Mr Jami is being compared to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali refugee who became a prominent Dutch politician campaigning for the reform of Islam but who left eventually for an academic career in the United States.

    Jannie Groen, a writer for De Volksrant newspaper, said: “[Among Muslims] he is getting the same reaction as Ayaan Hirsi Ali that he is too confrontational but you are seeing other former Muslims now coming forward. So he has been able to put this issue of apostasy on the agenda, even though they do not want to be in the same room as him and he has had to pay a price.”

    By the Book

    — 14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy

    — According to Baidhawi’s commentary, Sura 4: 88-89 reads: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard.”

    — The hadith, tradition and legend about Muhammad and his followers used as a basis of Sharia, tells of some atheists who were brought to “’Ali and he burnt them. The news of this reached Ibn Abbas who said: ‘If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostate forbade it . . . I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostate, ‘Whoever changed his [Islamic] religion, then kill him’.”

    — According to hadith, a special reward in Paradise is reserved for the killer of apostates

    Young Muslims begin dangerous fight for the right to abandon faith - Times Online

  10. #360
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    Re: Shew Shoe

    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    You're wrong. Killing people for leaving Christianity is not condoned in the New Testament. It is condoned in the Koran.

    You're also wrong about "my own vile words". I have quoted from the Koran. You're mistaken. If the words are vile then the Koran is vile. I will stop short of calling you a liar, but if you persist with this error then I will not have to. It will be obvious to all.

    If what I quote are mistranslations then why are so many muslims mistranslating the same quotes I seem to be?
    There is nothing in the Qur'an the explicitly says kill someone who leaves Islam. The only thing linking Islam to Capital Punishment for Apostasy is a few hadith, the most popular of which has only 1 weak isnad (chain of narration).

    You have not quoted from the Qur'an. You have misquoted the Qur'an countless times. I showed it in this thread: http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057894632-post318.html

    Here are some examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by walleye
    “The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30
    Now here is the real 9:30 (with 3 different translators taken from USC's website - CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
    009.030
    YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
    PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
    SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
    Quote Originally Posted by walleye
    “Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19
    Now here is the real 22:19 from the same source with 3 different translators
    022.019
    YUSUFALI: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
    PICKTHAL: These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,
    SHAKIR: These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
    The list goes on in from that same post. I even gave links to all the correct quotes from the Qur'an and you still have no reply. And it's not Muslims who are mistranslating, since you got your quotes from DanielPipes.org (Hasan: Quran preaches violence and Mohammed practised it. How can then a practising muslim believe in non violence? - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org)

    At least learn to read at a 3rd grade level before choosing to use elementary debate tact.

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