Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

EgoffTib said:

Please, remove your religious blinders. Once you have done this, feel free to come back and debate me. It is quite apparent that your bias is interfering with your ability to see fault in your own faith.

Later :coffeepap

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Sadly, Agreed

Degreez said:

No, when someone murders someone they are following there own mindset.

It's almost impossible debating with someone this narrow-minded.

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The narrow minded one would be the person who does not admit that the Koran teaches to kill and terrorize if you must to further Islam. Do you deny that?

walleye said:

The narrow minded one would be the person who does not admit that the Koran teaches to kill and terrorize if you must to further Islam. Do you deny that?

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Back up your claims with evidence.

Ignorance must really be bliss.

Ahmed Shaheen said:

And so does the terrorists.

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The terrorists are following the teachings of Muhammed. He was a man of war.

walleye said:

The narrow minded one would be the person who does not admit that the Koran teaches to kill and terrorize if you must to further Islam. Do you deny that?

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:sarcasticclap

Again, you are pointing fingers at one religion whilst subscribing to another which condones violence in it's holy book.

Degreez said:

Back up your claims with evidence.

Ignorance must really be bliss.

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If you are not aware the Koran teaches to kill infidels (unbelievers) and those who leave Islam, the you are the blissfully ignorant one. Do you really believe the Koran doesn't teach muslims to kill unbelievers?

walleye said:

If you are not aware the Koran teaches to kill infidels (unbelievers) and those who leave Islam, the you are the blissfully ignorant one.

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This is coming from the mouth of an individual claiming the Bible does not condone violence or killing. :roll:

walleye said:

If you are not aware the Koran teaches to kill infidels (unbelievers) and those who leave Islam, the you are the blissfully ignorant one. Do you really believe the Koran doesn't teach muslims to kill unbelievers?

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Are you going to back up your claims? Because once you do I will refute them quite easily, just like the claim "Koran teaches to kill unbelievers":

Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (Qu'ran, 15:2-3)

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Degreez said:

Are you going to back up your claims? Because once you do I will refute them quite easily, just like the claim "Koran teaches to kill unbelievers":

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Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

walleye said:

Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

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For a Christian, your disregard for context is quite a surprise.

Whether Islam/Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism...etc...is "true" that is besides the point.

Follow the religion that makes you a better person and that makes the world a better place.

Islam may be the appropriate religion for some, but sadly, it seems too many people are ill-suited for what the Koran holds.

We can argue all day on who's right (and you guys have been doing that...) but there seems to be their is no right answer; or at least the answer has yet to be discovered.

EgoffTib said:

For a Christian, your disregard for context is quite a surprise.

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Christian has nothing to do with it.

Give me the correct context that justifies killing in the name of Allah as these passages from the Koran state.

I'm waiting. Refute these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Degreez
Are you going to back up your claims? Because once you do I will refute them quite easily, just like the claim "Koran teaches to kill unbelievers":

Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

walleye said:

Christian has nothing to do with it.

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Some Christians throw a tantrum if you quote the Bible out of context, thus my remark.

Give me the correct context that justifies killing in the name of Allah as these passages from the Koran state.

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It's quite obvious in these lines:

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

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It would appear that their attack is a response to being attacked. Go figure!

walleye said:

Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

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Out of context, read the ayat before:

[9:12] If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may refrain.

[9:13] Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place? Are you afraid of them? GOD is the One you are supposed to fear, if you are believers.

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walleye said:

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .
Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

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It's not okay to fight against those who are fighting with you? I like how you snipped out part of ayat 190. Here it is in its entirety:

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

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Also love how you left out ayat 192.

Anymore?

walleye said:

The terrorists are following the teachings of Muhammed. He was a man of war.

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Oh really ! in which way ?
Excuse me, it would be stupidity to believe whatever you hear, they told us the same things they told you (that they are Murdering in the name of Allah), but the differnce between you and us is that that we believe that they are a bunch of Morons who are trying to get our sympathy with their sayings.

Ahmed Shaheen said:

Oh really ! in which way ?
Excuse me, it would be stupidity to believe whatever you hear, they told us the same things they told you (that they are Murdering in the name of Allah), but the differnce between you and us is that that we believe that they are a bunch of Morons who are trying to get our sympathy with their sayings.

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Hasan: Quran preaches violence and Mohammed practised it. How can then a practising muslim believe in non violence? - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org

walleye said:

Hasan: Quran preaches violence and Mohammed practised it. How can then a practising muslim believe in non violence? - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org

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Quite a few out of context ayats.

Take a look at this one:

8.67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made great slaughter in the land.

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Now take a look at and compare the translations:

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:67

(It) was not to a prophet that (there) be for him captives/prisoners so that he hardens/exceeds in killing (tyrannizes) in the earth/Planet Earth, you want the present world's enjoyable accessories/vanities , and God wants the end (other life), and God (is) glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.

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Still haven't supported any of your claims yet. You claim you've read the Qur'an, but all I've seen is out of context verses that are posted on hundreds of sites similar to the one you posted. Sounds like you've only read other people's trash talk about Islam.

Degreez said:

Quite a few out of context ayats.

Take a look at this one:



Now take a look at and compare the translations:

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:67


Still haven't supported any of your claims yet. You claim you've read the Qur'an, but all I've seen is out of context verses that are posted on hundreds of sites similar to the one you posted. Sounds like you've only read other people's trash talk about Islam.

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You and your pals always claim it is taken out of context. There is nothing taken out of context when it endorses killing in the name of Allah. People aren't that stupid. Explain how these verses are "taken out of context".

"This is what many of our enemies believe about the rest of the worlds population" Koran 9:29

“Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191

“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123

“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5

“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85

“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30

“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33

“The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque.” Koran 9:28

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Koran 47:4

“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65

“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12

“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60

walleye said:

You and your pals always claim it is taken out of context. There is nothing taken out of context when it endorses killing in the name of Allah. People aren't that stupid. Just because you believe everything your Imam or senile religious thug teaches you doesn't mean the rest of us are going to swallow it.

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Do you really not know how to read?

If you take something out of context and reinterpret it by itself of course there will be a misrepresentation of the true meaning.

Look at Numbers 31:17-18 from the Bible:

31:17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
31:18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves.

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With your same twisted logic, I can say the Bible is commanding all Christians to kill every male child and every woman who has had sexual intercourse. The girls who have not had sex are free to any Christian who wants to ****.

Look how easy it is to misrepresent passages. I can distort the true meaning of anything If you're too ignorant to even see this in plain sight, then I feel there's not much hope for you whatsoever.

PS - I have you quoted above with your post unedited. I started to refute all those ayats that were in the link you posted (Hasan: Quran preaches violence and Mohammed practised it. How can then a practising muslim believe in non violence? - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org). After checking that you when it copied and pasted them yourself, I decided to give you a slightly harsher reality check with my post. At least people can read your post as quoted in mine in more disgust.

After thousands and thousands of words read and typed I have moved from the belief that all Muslims are either terrorists or would be agents in waiting.

There are some of those in most large groupings of Muslims, I believe, but the majority of Muslims just want to live long and prosper like anyone else.

And that is the purpose behind the internal struggle of Islam. The Jihad of the heart. To grow more willing and able to follow the example of Muhammad more fully, in all ways and things. This also means in dealings with kafirs.

Most Muslims find it difficult to treat even non-Muslims with disdain but if they grow to be better Muslims they will always have the Holy verses to serve as the perfect example for behavior. Behavior that includes but is not limited to terrorism.

Yes, the Koran recognizes the tendency of Muslims to shy away from what they SHOULD do. That is why Muhammad wrote:

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).

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But Muslims are not the only ones who shy away from what their Holy Books tell them to do.

Jews eat pork and work on Saturday.

Christians take the name of God in vain and bear false witness.

Both shy away from the ideals of their religion.

The message to Christians is to persevere after sinning, repenting and then promising to do better next time. Catholicism has a system of confession to keep the worshiper engaged in the internal struggle to be a better example of Jesus.

Well, Jihad is one of the methods used to keep Muslims engaged in that struggle to live up to the Prophet's example.

walleye said:

I have read the Koran. I see a book of murder and hate.

I haver read the New Testament and the words of Jesus and his disciples. I see a book of love and forgiveness and mercy.

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sinners are not supposed to be forgiven so easily and have their sins washed away, this only encourages sin and is the huge problem with the new testament as compared with the old. The new testament and Jesus has lead us into sin in the name of love.

Love is just sex afterall and chemical reactions related to sex.

walleye said:

I agree.

Do you believe in the millenium?

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What do you mean? If you mean the millenium and the age of the king and such. NO..

I believe in an age of prosper for human being where all adopt the morals of the bible, and there is end to sins and such, and age where we really "get to know God", and everyone lives in happiness and a prosperous world for all. The last age..

I don't know what the millennium you refer to is.. I do not believe in Jesus as anything but a false prophet. At this day and age where the faith in Jesus is so central in Europe, we indulge in sin and flood our soul with sinful ways.. That hardly a coincidence that we live like this and a record people believe in Jesus and the new testament rather than the old testament and God.

walleye said:

My faith does not teach murder is acceptable when performed in God's name. My faith teaches murder is against God's law. Would you tell me the Christians who are murdering people in the name of Jesus? I'd like to know.

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A bible that is never taught in the new testament which is one of the greatest sins in the old(yet not in ten commandments), is "backbiting"...

Christians love to "backbite", in addition Christians or so called Christians love to steal, lie and cheat as well. Its what happens frequently in my Christian country Norway and most Christian countries across Europe. People lie every day, many times a day, cheating has become normality, and many people steal.

Most people "backbite"..

If we learn to follow the ways of the old testament instead of the old, I am sure we would follow the ten commandments as a society rather then so easily break them in hope that "Jesus will save us from our sin".. We have to live free of sin, not sin in hope of being forgiven them by Jesus.. Thats the main difference between the old and the new testament. The new encourages sin.

walleye said:

The terrorists are following the teachings of Muhammed. He was a man of war.

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Have you read the Koran? I have.. Some say the most aggressive chapters is not even written by Mohammed.. I think they are, but I dont really find them overly aggressive, just smart, and preparing a society for war, if it comes to their shores.

I am only worried about say, 3% of the Koran, which specifies hate.. I am not sure about the interpretations of it, and will probably have to re-read it many times to understand if it actually teaches blind hate towards Christians and Jews.