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Thread: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

  1. #31
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    How unpredictable, another immature retort.
    Yeah.

    OK... a 'small tactical force'...
    ...of helicopter gunships, firing cannon and ATGMs into the compound.
    ...of A10s, firing cannon and dropping cluster bombs
    ...of F16s, dropping 500lb LGBs.
    ...or any number of other 'small tactical forces' I can think of.

    Have you figured out hoe miserably inspecific your respose really was?


    How unspecific is it. You have terrorists held up in a building, you send in a small tactical unit to infiltrate the building and take out the terrorists while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
    That's nice -- if you have time to get them there.
    If you dont?

    Amd, how do you explain to the Israeli people the unnecessary deaths of Israeli soldiers?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-30-08 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    How unpredictable, another immature retort.

    How unspecific is it. You have terrorists held up in a building, you send in a small tactical unit to infiltrate the building and take out the terrorists while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
    How do you get this force into palestine and to the area quickly with little resistance.

    What do you say to the families of the people your governments first and foremost concern is meant to be about (its citizens) when you go back to tell them their family member died in something that could've been accomplished with a single smart missile?

    What do you do when these people are possibly captured by Hamas forces?

    What do you do when civilian casualities still rack up a bit as the terrorists are hard to discern from civilians and they use civilians as a form of a shield?

    What do you do if you need to destroy the infastructure that is being used to launch, but civilians are in it? Blow it with civilians inside? Take the time to try and get/force the civilians out?

    How do you handle the propoganda used to say that Israel is invading palestine, or sending in groups to murder people, or claims that they stilled killed "X" number of civilians. Now, with actual men on the ground, they can also start making claims that they cold bloodily murdered civilians knowingly and willingly even if they just ended up getting caught in the crossfire. Would 80 dead by rockets be worse propoganda than 4 dead being claimed to have been wantonly and cold bloodily murdered by Israeli forces?
    You down with TPP?

  3. #33
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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How do you get this force into palestine and to the area quickly with little resistance.
    Helicopters probably. You can do some super fancy things I suppose if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What do you say to the families of the people your governments first and foremost concern is meant to be about (its citizens) when you go back to tell them their family member died in something that could've been accomplished with a single smart missile?
    "We're sorry that the leadership on both sides of this are complete douchebags. Expect a lot more of you to die while the leaders risk nothing".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What do you do when these people are possibly captured by Hamas forces?
    You're in the army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What do you do when civilian casualities still rack up a bit as the terrorists are hard to discern from civilians and they use civilians as a form of a shield?
    War sucks, it ain't far. Probably should search for a solution rather than continued war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What do you do if you need to destroy the infastructure that is being used to launch, but civilians are in it? Blow it with civilians inside? Take the time to try and get/force the civilians out?
    Depends on what you're talking about. If your talking of an apartment complex, your already on the loosing side. There is no action you can take which won't result in more death and destruction. If your talking manufacturing like a plant that's making tanks or howitzers, that's a different story. Disruption manufacture and production capabilities goes a lot farther than blowing some civilians to hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How do you handle the propoganda used to say that Israel is invading palestine, or sending in groups to murder people, or claims that they stilled killed "X" number of civilians. Now, with actual men on the ground, they can also start making claims that they cold bloodily murdered civilians knowingly and willingly even if they just ended up getting caught in the crossfire. Would 80 dead by rockets be worse propoganda than 4 dead being claimed to have been wantonly and cold bloodily murdered by Israeli forces?
    They're already at war. The problem with your last sentence is that it's the reverse. Over 300 people dead this last time, was that good? Was that proper? The Hezbollah attacks which led to this retaliation killed how many Israelis? 2, 3? Something in that ball part? Is a two order of magnitude increase in civilian death justifiable? Is it right? Has it done anything to alleviate the problem, or has it exacerbated it?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #34
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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Hamas broke the truce with Israel and the Israelis responded in kind end of story.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How do you get this force into palestine and to the area quickly with little resistance.
    You don't.

    You hit the battery with some sort of stand-off weapon, like artillery, or with something dropped from an aircraft, like a small guided bomb.

    You only risk people when you have no other choice.

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    It's as possible as hitting the one's who caused attacks with missile attacks on civilian sectors. Basically, the ultimate conclusion that we've reached is that no matter the reaction if Israel, it's all ineffective and would most likely go to feed back on the propaganda which makes this such a difficult mess in the first place.
    I agree that a standard military response is mostly ineffectual at combating those directly responsible for the attacks, but that's not really the point of these counter-attacks. These counter-attacks exist as a deterrent. A policy of non-responsiveness would embolden Hamas militants which would intensify their attacks on Israel. Hamas militants are less inclined to launch rockets into Israel when they know it will illicit military retaliation.

    Thus if it's the propaganda that's really hurting, then maybe that's where things should be taken care of. And long term propaganda combat is going to take some time and in the mean time, you'd have to endure attacks without much in the way of retaliation. At least not retaliation which would put at risk a huge portion of the civilian population. Instead you'd have to heavily engage in diplomatic and humanitarian efforts over several years to start to change the minds and hearts of the people. But if that were done, that would go a long way into combating the propaganda which seems to be the bigger thorn.
    A propaganda war would be mostly ineffectual against a group of people that are convinced the Jews are pigs and weasels. Religious extremism is a largely a consequence of poverty and weak governance. A strong Arab nation (Egypt) would need to assume sovereignty over Palestine while an international coalition would engage in humanitarian reconstruction and security operations. These policies in conjunction with one another would provide solutions to both problems.

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You only risk people when you have no other choice.
    Civilians are people.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Civilians are people.
    There's that cranium-inserted-in-rectum obtuseness again.

    Either that, or you really -don't- understand that I was speaking from the perspecitve of a force commander, tasked with taking out the mortars that were shelling an Israeli town. HE doesnt risk HIS people unless he has no other choice, because his primary concern is HIS people and the Israeli civilians that he is charged with protecting.

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Helicopters probably. You can do some super fancy things I suppose if you want.
    That sould be fun if those get hit with rockets and put into the ground, killing civilians and losing Israeli lives as well as money on something that didn't need to be done in a more dangerous way.

    "We're sorry that the leadership on both sides of this are complete douchebags. Expect a lot more of you to die while the leaders risk nothing".
    Thank god you're not a commander in the military.

    You're in the army.
    Ah, so you believe a government should view its citizens lives as equal to any other countries people? That they should willingly put their people into harms way, and potentially have the enemy be able to get a captive they can use to ransom, propogandize, and extract information out of to cut down possible civilian casualities?

    Maybe I'm crazy, but I want my government looking out for the well being of my country and its people first and foremost, and the country of those attacking me second.

    War sucks, it ain't far. Probably should search for a solution rather than continued war.
    You're correct, it isn't fair. Yet you keep trying to say its not "fair" that israel killed more than palestine did.


    Depends on what you're talking about. If your talking of an apartment complex, your already on the loosing side. There is no action you can take which won't result in more death and destruction. If your talking manufacturing like a plant that's making tanks or howitzers, that's a different story. Disruption manufacture and production capabilities goes a lot farther than blowing some civilians to hell.
    You're right, if its an apartment you're screwed. So you're saying risk Israeli lives to do something that's likely going to cost palestinian livse anyways.

    In regards to manufacturing, to me that would be a complete military target if its purpose is producing tanks and such and as such I *think* we don't disagree that targetting that's fine.

    They're already at war. The problem with your last sentence is that it's the reverse. Over 300 people dead this last time, was that good? Was that proper?
    No, its not good 300 people died (though I think I just read the UN number is closer to 60). Its not good, nor proper, either for Israeli's to live assulted by rockets daily simply because they don't kill as many.

    No, its not going to solve the long term problem. Guess what, NOT reacting to it likely isn't going to solve the long term problem either. However reacting may help the short term problem, where as NOt acting most definitely won't be helping the short term problem.

    Is it good? No, its rarely ever good for people to die. Is it proper? In some ways yes...it is proper for a country to rise to the defense of its people by any means it has. Lets see anywhere close to the amount of condemnation and critisim for Israel come out of you towards Hamas/Palestine for being the ones that are actually CHOOSING to cause Civilians to be wrapped up in this thing in the first place. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if Hamas wasn't purposefully taking advantage of civilian areas.
    You down with TPP?

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    Re: What is the proper response to Hamas rockets?

    Starting now how about Isreal does nothing and if Hamas sends over a rocket then Isreal can send one randomly back in same manner...etc.?

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