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Thread: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for peace ?

  1. #951
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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Most of the land was the private property of the Arabs before 1918.

    Don't start the Bolshevism again. The fact the statehood of the land changes doesn't mean that all ancient, traditional rights to private property on it are removed and to say so is pure socialism and against Catholic social teaching.

    Please explain how you reconcile your support for socialism here with your Catholicism?
    Actually, when the statehood of the land changes, the new state does get to decide what happens to the land. That's what happens when a new regime comes into power. We've seen it many times in history. It's not about socialism. It's about "to the victors go the spoils". The Allies won WWI. They got to choose who the land belonged to. That's the reality of the situation.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, the issue is jurisdiction. The British Mandate allowed Great Britain to be the administrators over Palestine. From the beginning the Palestinian Mandate was to be divided into three areas; Jordan, Israel, and an Arab-Palestine. Individual rights were less relevant than the plan to divide the area. One the UN was created, the Mandate, still governed by Great Britain, was now overseen by the UN, until the British handed over administration to them in 1947.

    I understand that some do not like this, but that is irrelevant. It is what occurred. It was not aggression. It was authorized and mandated by the UN. Again, whether you like it or not is irrelevant. The only aggression that occurred was Arab aggression, going against the authorized decision of the UN. And, once again, it is irrelevant whether they liked it or not.

    The problem with this entire line of debate is that the side that blames the Partition is just playing the victim. The Partition happened. It's not changing. Get over it. What is the current solution? Complaining about the partition is far from it.
    Actually that does not deal with the important issue of the land-theft and mass immigration which was the aggression. The UN doesn't decide right and wrong and that this wasn't aggression particularly as the partition and the giving of refugee property to the UN is a break from the international laws it is founded on such as the Geneva conventions and therefore it contradicts itself even if it wasn't absurd to suggest such a self-interested and hypocritical organisation of world powers could decide right and wrong.

    But I was not blaming the partition, just debunking people who kept going back and trying to blame the Arabs alone for starting the conflict.

    I agree a two-state solution is needed and the future is where we should focus and that means focusing on the aggression of Hamas and the Israeli occupation and settlement.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, when the statehood of the land changes, the new state does get to decide what happens to the land. That's what happens when a new regime comes into power. We've seen it many times in history. It's not about socialism. It's about "to the victors go the spoils". The Allies won WWI. They got to choose who the land belonged to. That's the reality of the situation.
    Yes but that doesn't change the fact it is theft, property does not come from the state alone and the taking of property like this is aggression. No one certainly that calls themselves very conservative can subsrcibe to such socialism. They change ownership because they have power not right.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Actually that does not deal with the important issue of the land-theft and mass immigration which was the aggression. The UN doesn't decide right and wrong and that this wasn't aggression particularly as the partition and the giving of refugee property to the UN is a break from the international laws it is founded on such as the Geneva conventions and therefore it contradicts itself even if it wasn't absurd to suggest such a self-interested and hypocritical organisation of world powers could decide right and wrong.
    Sorry, but the UN does and did get to decide. And since it did, the land transfers and immigration were not the aggression. The Arab war of 1948 was.

    But I was not blaming the partition, just debunking people who kept going back and trying to blame the Arabs alone for starting the conflict.
    The aggressive conflict was started by the Arabs. Your debunking has failed.

    I agree a two-state solution is needed and the future is where we should focus and that means focusing on the aggression of Hamas and the Israeli occupation and settlement.
    I agree. And in precisely the order that you just posted the solutions in.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes but that doesn't change the fact it is theft, property does not come from the state alone and the taking of property like this is aggression. No one certainly that calls themselves very conservative can subsrcibe to such socialism. They change ownership because they have power not right.
    Firstly, I do not call myself very conservative. I'm pretty much the opposite. Secondly, in this case, property did come from the state, since the state occupied the area. The originating power did not exist. And in this case, the aggression did not come from those who emigrated. It came from those who refused to abide by the UN Resolution.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Sorry, but the UN does and did get to decide. And since it did, the land transfers and immigration were not the aggression. The Arab war of 1948 was.
    The UN does not decide what is right and wrong and what is aggression just what it recognises and what is law. This is does not change what aggression is. You are mistaking law for morality I'm afraid. It also contradicts itself by recognising the theft of refugee property.



    The aggressive conflict was started by the Arabs. Your debunking has failed
    .
    Nope it was started by Jews, your arguments are weak and rely on the UN deciding right and wrong and your conflation of law for morality. The UN is self-interested and hypocritical and law does not constitute morality. The fact UN recognises something does not mean it wasn't aggression unless you can fill in the gaping holes in your ideas.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Firstly, I do not call myself very conservative. I'm pretty much the opposite.
    You don't say, I was talking about the other poster.

    Secondly, in this case, property did come from the state, since the state occupied the area. The originating power did not exist. And in this case, the aggression did not come from those who emigrated. It came from those who refused to abide by the UN Resolution.
    Nope it didn't, the UN recognition not only does not decide right and wrong but it doesn't decide issues like this, it just sets up law. You are trying to conflate different things. It just deals with what happens after the event according to international agreement not according to what was wrong or right about the event. The UN recognised much like Tibet being part of China or the USSR controlling the Eastern bloc but these were not morally right and were aggression by most people's standards.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The UN does not decide what is right and wrong and what is aggression just what it recognises and what is law. This is does not change what aggression is. You are mistaking law for morality I'm afraid. It also contradicts itself by recognising the theft of refugee property.
    I'm sorry, but it does. One can be angry all they like. They still need to follow the law even if they think it is unfair. And the law defined it as not being aggression. Morality takes a back seat simply because morality is subjective.
    .
    Nope it was started by Jews, your arguments are weak and rely on the UN deciding right and wrong and your conflation of law for morality. The UN is self-interested and hypocritical and law does not constitute morality. The fact UN recognises something does not mean it wasn't aggression unless you can fill in the gaping holes in your ideas.
    Nope, it was started by the Arabs. Your arguments are weak and go against what was legally enacted. Morality takes a back seat, since morality in this case (as in most) is subjective. Your opinion of the UN is just that...opinion. It had/has jurisdiction, and that trumps your position.

    Until you can show the objectivity of the moralism in this situation, your position does not hold up.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 01-20-09 at 07:09 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You don't say, I was talking about the other poster.
    Gotcha.

    Nope it didn't, the UN recognition not only does not decide right and wrong but it doesn't decide issues like this, it just sets up law. You are trying to conflate different things. It just deals with what happens after the event according to international agreement not according to what was wrong or right about the event. The UN recognised much like Tibet being part of China or the USSR controlling the Eastern bloc but these were not morally right and were aggression by most people's standards.
    Nope. The UN decides the legal aspect of these situations. Morality in this case, as in many, is subjective. Until you can prove the objectivity of morality, here, your position is negated.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #960
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    Re: OMG.. About 300 killed and 700 injured. Do you think Israel still seeking for pea

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm sorry, but it does. One can be angry all they like. They still need to follow the law even if they think it is unfair. And the law defined it as not be aggression. Morality takes a back seat simply because morality is subjective.
    No the law did no such thing, it just defined what was to recognised as the borders not who aggressed nor what is morally correct. You are making that leap and it is unjustified.

    Nope, it was started by the Arabs. Your arguments are weak and go against what was legally enacted. Morality takes a back seat, since morality in this case (as in most) is subjective. Your opinion of the UN is just that...opinion. It had/has jurisdiction, and that trumps your position.

    Until you can show the objectivity of the moralism in this situation, your position does not hold up.
    Sure it does because it is obvious to most people what aggression was in the situation. If I stole your house would that not be aggressing against you? If the state then recognised it would that then make it not aggression and morally right?

    You are conflating morality and aggression with law, you position is extremely weak.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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