View Poll Results: Regarding your support for Oftencold's Rec. Drug Legalization Proposal:

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  • I support Oftencold's Rec. Drug Legalization Proposal

    3 13.04%
  • I do not support Oftencold's Rec. Drug Legalization Proposal

    14 60.87%
  • Oftencold's Rec. Drug Legalization Proposal is too harsh

    6 26.09%
  • Oftencold's Rec. Drug Legalization Proposal in to lenient

    3 13.04%
  • I am a drug dealer

    2 8.70%
  • I am a drug user

    3 13.04%
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Thread: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

  1. #21
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    [POLL, is public and multiple choice]

    I have come up with a model that I believe would allow me to support general legalization of all recreational drugs, and I'd like to know your opinions on the matter.
    So far so good. I agree, all recreational drugs should be legalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by oftencold
    [*]A constitutional ban on all public funds spent on drug rehabilitation. (Exception: persons who became dependent through medical treatment or through the actions of others)
    Nope, I can't support that. Is it in our nation's economic interests to help people become productive individuals who contribute to our economy instead of permanently relying on the government. If a few thousand dollars of rehab can accomplish that, then we should absolutely spend public money on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oftencold
    [*]A constitutional provision that any recreational drug affected individual trespassing on private property for any reason shall have been deemed to have acted in a life threatening manner to legitimate occupants or visitors on said property. (Purpose: to exonerate anyone who uses any form of force, including deadly force to defend against drug affected trespasser.)
    Absolutely not. This doesn't even make any sense. If a guy is drunk, or is high on marijuana, he shouldn't have to fear for his life if he pisses in your front yard. I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish with this provision...it sounds like just another way to continue the war on drugs, but with vigilantes instead of DEA officials.

    Quote Originally Posted by oftencold
    [*]Loss of tax-free and non-profit status from any activities of any organization designed to provide drug rehabilitation services.
    Like hospitals? Churches? Universities?

    Why shouldn't they be allowed to provide drug rehabilitation services? One of the major selling points for ending the war on drugs is to allow people to seek treatment more openly. That point is lost if you're going to take their treatment options away from them. If someone recognizes that they have a problem and is trying to get help, that's great. I'd rather have the government spend a few thousand dollars for rehab, then a few hundred thousand dollars for a lifetime of welfare checks and/or prison cells.

    Quote Originally Posted by oftencold
    [*]Complete absolution of responsibility by government at any level fort the quality, purity or efficaciousness of any recreational drug.
    Here is a point that I can agree with. In fact, I'd take it a step further. Let's apply the same reasoning to ANY drug, and just abolish the FDA entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by oftencold
    [*]Severe penalties, at least comparable to those engendered by alcohol intoxication for any act damaging to life or limb while under the influence of recreational drugs.
    Depends on the drug.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-28-08 at 11:11 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Absolutely not. This doesn't even make any sense. If a guy is drunk, or is high on marijuana, he shouldn't have to fear for his life if he pisses in your front yard.
    Perhaps off-topic, but I am of the opinion that people who are sober should fear for their lives when considering pissing in another man's yard uninvited. A man's home is his castle and his land is his domain.

  3. #23
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    The problem is, our society does not allow people to die when they are useless; it only allows them to die when they have exceeded our capacity to keep them alive. And exempting drug users from welfare and Social Security will not change this, because we simply will not allow them to turn around and die in the streets. We are a First World nation and are rightfully embarrassed at the notion that we might allow such a thing.

    The only way to reduce the expense that drug users impose upon society is to reduce the damage that they do to themselves, their families, and their employers by their habits. Everything else leads to additional tax monies and reduced productivity for little to no benefit, aside from the warm feelings one gets from saying "I did something about the drug problem!"

    Warm feelings are no basis for sound policy.



    As do I, but I do not think this distinction applies to whether or not those drugs must be regulated. People do not die from drug abuse nearly as often as they are psychologically, intellectually, or physically crippled by it-- and cripples are a drag upon society no matter how their impairments occurred, whether they are taxpayer-supported or not. It is merely a difference of where and how efficiently that burden is carried.



    There are obvious risks to any intoxicant, certainly. But possibilities of negligent or malicious adulteration is not an obvious risk, nor one controllable by consumers, and it greatly magnifies the harm that drug abuse inflicts upon society. The government has a legitimate role in ensuring that our whiskey and gin do not contain lead or wood alcohol; they would have a similar role in ensuring the purity of our cannabis or cocaine if they were legal.

    A person with a moderate cocaine habit can still be a productive citizen. A person who snorts a rail of powdered drain cleaner, even once, is much less capable.
    My personal experience with dedicated drug abusers, is that there is no predictable limit to the damage they cause those around them, and that after the abuse becomes critical, only availability constrains the level of consumption.

    Further, I have found that very few such individuals ever really recover. (I know that there are glowing exceptions, but they are rare.) While most of them live, they deny fulfilled lives to others.

    I may be cold, but over the years my tolerance and concern has largely been exhausted for these people.

    As an aside, you recognize something that should be obvious, but most of our fellows do not: that Government is not Society. I gleaned this from your references to Americans not letting the abusers die in the streets.

    The implications for so many forgetting this fact are staggering.

    I would like to explore this concept at length with you in the future.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-28-08 at 11:22 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    My personal experience with dedicated drug abusers, is that there is no predictable limit to the damage they cause those around them, and that after the abuse becomes critical, only availability constrains the level of consumption.

    Further, I have found that very few such individuals ever really recover. (I know that there are glowing exceptions, but they are rare.) While most of them live, they deny fulfilled lives to others.
    In my opinion, this is all the more reason that the drugs themselves must be made to do as little harm as possible, and that treatment must be as accessible as possible. You acknowledge yourself that the primary harm in drug abuse is not to the abuser himself-- who surely brought it upon himself-- but to the innocent, responsible people around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    As an aside, you recognize something that should be obvious, but most of our fellows do not: that Government is not Society. I gleaned this from your references to Americans not letting the abusers die in the streets.
    Yes, but this is a case in which it makes more sense for the government to step in. Because Americans will not simply abandon our own people to die in the streets-- no matter how much they might deserve to-- the government washing its hands of the matter means that individuals, mostly the addict's family and friends, will be left to pick up the slack. And unlike the government, families can be broken and ruined by this burden.

    Again, the principle is attempting to contain and reduce the harm that the drug addict might inflict upon others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I would like to explore this concept at length with you in the future.
    It is a theme in many of my posts. Please feel free to address them as you see fit.

  5. #25
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    In my opinion, this is all the more reason that the drugs themselves must be made to do as little harm as possible, and that treatment must be as accessible as possible. You acknowledge yourself that the primary harm in drug abuse is not to the abuser himself-- who surely brought it upon himself-- but to the innocent, responsible people around him.
    To be blunt, it is the love and compassion of the people around the abuser, that generally allow the harm to grow so acute.

    As I have said, very few of the abusers ever truly recover in my experience. The damage goes on and on, sometimes over decades. I might fell differently if I'd never been involved. But as things are, I tend to think it often best for all concerned if the dedicated abuser die more quickly and cease to aggravate the misfortunes of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yes, but this is a case in which it makes more sense for the government to step in. Because Americans will not simply abandon our own people to die in the streets-- no matter how much they might deserve to-- the government washing its hands of the matter means that individuals, mostly the addict's family and friends, will be left to pick up the slack. And unlike the government, families can be broken and ruined by this burden.
    Families will certainly be hurt by the descent of those concerned, but this is inevitable. A quick demise of the affected is more likely to limit the suffering of the innocent.

    I know this sounds heartless, but it is based on observation.

    I can also tell you that I've experienced what I'm told was mild narcotic withdrawal following a serious injury and lengthy treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Again, the principle is attempting to contain and reduce the harm that the drug addict might inflict upon others.
    I agree. I just no longer belive in any treatment other than the Earth is viable for most addicts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It is a theme in many of my posts. Please feel free to address them as you see fit.
    I wish that we could, but conditions may prevent it in the foreseeable fuutre.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-29-08 at 12:03 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by cheat3 View Post
    This is pretty much the most retarded plan ive ever heard. for anyone who has been addicted to drugs or has knowen anyone who has, knows that drug addiction is an illness not a crime. The ammount of money wasted on prison places for drug addicts, is astronomical, these are not violent people, they are ill people.
    Why is it considered an "illness" when some reprobate chooses to open his mouth or a vein to insert chemicals purchased from a criminal stranger to alter the functioning of their disused brain? I'd call it a (poor) choice, not a disease.

    And I don't want to see them sent to prison either, I wish to see them removed as a burden to society. What could be more fair that top allow them to reap the benefits of their choices?
    Quote Originally Posted by cheat3 View Post
    If you legalised recreational drugs, monitereed their purity, and reinserted tax revenues back into rehabilitation centers the country would not only have a far more mature attitute towards drugs but crime levels would plumet.
    Do you not see something akin to prostitution for the Government in this?

    Most of these people will die or be severely damaged by their practices regardless of treatment.

    As for "mature attitudes," what could be more mature than granting people the freedom to make profound choices, (such as self-inflicting brain death,) with outr interference.
    Quote Originally Posted by cheat3 View Post
    In Holland weed is legally sold in shops prevailance of lifetime use of weed is around 17%, in the USA where you can in some states go to prison for possesion prevailance of liftiem use is around 36%.
    That's noice. I suppose. Although the legaltiy of harder drugs in Holland mght juis as well be a reason for the lesser popularity of Cannbis.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-29-08 at 12:34 AM.

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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    My reaction is hard to explain, so bear with me...

    I am not in favour of legalization at this time for the simple fact that, even among drug users, drugs are seen as "recreational". I believe that safe drug use also requires psychospiritual education. Humanity has used naturally occurring alterants for thousands of years to experience altered reality, and I am against the idea that it's just for fun. I think the fun factor is a modern idea... but I may be wrong.

    People still have this view that drugs take you away from "reality" and provide a fun escape, but there is also a mind expanding component to some of them that can have deeper repercussions (whether positive or negative) on the user. For this reason I don't think we should classify a lot of drugs as recreational as it carries an improper meaning. The entire paradigm of thinking on drugs needs to shift.

    For instance, doing cocaine and taking magic mushrooms are two totally different experiences. Cocaine is a social drug but mushrooms cause most people to internalize, yet a lot of people take mushrooms at parties and in social settings. There isn't a collective knowledge yet about the deep effects of each drug and proper use. They each carry different psychospiritual characteristics that have been largely ignored in modern times.

    It's not enough just to legalize. The world of drug use could easily have its own encyclopedia on purposes, intentions, experiences, and after effects.
    Last edited by Orion; 12-29-08 at 12:31 AM.

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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    [POLL, is public and multiple choice]

    I have come up with a model that I believe would allow me to support general legalization of all recreational drugs, and I'd like to know your opinions on the matter.
    These conditions would first have to be met:
    1. A constitutional ban on all public funds spent on drug rehabilitation. (Exception: persons who became dependent through medical treatment or through the actions of others)
    2. A constitutional provision that any recreational drug affected individual trespassing on private property for any reason shall have been deemed to have acted in a life threatening manner to legitimate occupants or visitors on said property. (Purpose: to exonerate anyone who uses any form of force, including deadly force to defend against drug affected trespasser.)
    3. Loss of tax-free and non-profit status from any activities of any organization designed to provide drug rehabilitation services.
    4. Complete absolution of responsibility by government at any level fort the quality, purity or efficaciousness of any recreational drug.
    5. Severe penalties, at least comparable to those engendered by alcohol intoxication for any act damaging to life or limb while under the influence of recreational drugs.
    I'd rather society address the holes in people’s lives which they are trying to fill with drugs.

  9. #29
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    [POLL, is public and multiple choice]


    I have come up with a model that I believe would allow me to support general legalization of all recreational drugs, and I'd like to know your opinions on the matter.
    Sure, I'm all for legalization.



    A constitutional ban on all public funds spent on drug rehabilitation. (Exception: persons who became dependent through medical treatment or through the actions of others)
    Why not attempt to help these people add to the productivity of our nation by taxing recreational drug sales in the amount necessary to run the rehabilitation centers? The addicts themselves will have paid for rehab through their drug use, in a sense.


    A constitutional provision that any recreational drug affected individual trespassing on private property for any reason shall have been deemed to have acted in a life threatening manner to legitimate occupants or visitors on said property. (Purpose: to exonerate anyone who uses any form of force, including deadly force to defend against drug affected trespasser.

    Ridiculous and unnecessary.


    Loss of tax-free and non-profit status from any activities of any organization designed to provide drug rehabilitation services.
    Why? The investment by society is well worth it, whether or not drugs are legal. Furthermore, you're not going to motivate people to stay off drugs because there is a lack of availability of rehab services, if that is your aim. You will end up with more addicts. Why would you want that?


    Complete absolution of responsibility by government at any level fort the quality, purity or efficaciousness of any recreational drug.
    What are you trying to accompish? If you are saying not to let people sue the gov't for monetary damages concerning these matters, fine.


    Severe penalties, at least comparable to those engendered by alcohol intoxication for any act damaging to life or limb while under the influence of recreational drugs.

    Yes. Let the addict have consequences for actually endangering others

  10. #30
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    Re: A Proposal for Legalizing all Recreational Drugs

    What is it exactly that you propose to tax from severe drug abusers to pay for what is probably the futile exercise of "rehabilitating" them. The generally have little left of value by the time they enter rehab the first (probably of many) times.

    My reasoning is generally ruthless in this matter, as experience with drug abusers has taught me. I am aware of and applaud the exceptions. However I have seen the futility of rehab in general. I don't believe that public funds can be justified in the realm.

    Addressing the problems of, and returning theses people to any semblance of a normal life is somewhat akin to keeping a metal colander afloat.

    My argument is simply one of accepting and cutting losses.

    If one would help someone in these matters, their best chance of success comes long before dependence.

    Again I know that there are exceptions, but I assure you they are rare, and oddly often don't depend on formal rehab programs.

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