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Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

Are you a non-Christian and still celebrate Christmas?

  • Total voters
    26
Kernel Sanders said:
I can't speak for whatever version you have in you have in your hand, but every version I'm seeing on google has the word night in it
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Fair enough.. Different bibles varies slightly.

Kernel Sanders said:
What makes you think that it is pure speculation? There is ample historical record of society during those times, and shepherds were not an insignificant portion of that society. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that would indicate anything contrary to what I said, or are you just trying to dismiss my evidence by calling it speculation?
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It is speculation, you have ABSOLUTELY no proof of your claims that shepherds ONLY took their flock out at night during springtime. Lets just say for the sake of it that the bible actually says it was at nighttime, that doesn't prove anything, and even if they ONLY did it at nighttime IN the spring with no exceptions, which I doubt and you still havet proven and cant because it wouldn't even guarantee that what they thought of as "spring" in Israel at that time was not in December or January. There are so many factors that make your claim PURE speculation that it certainly in no way is a fact, and even though if all pieces of what you said were true, it still wouldn't be proof that Jesus was born in what we in the Northern hemisphere in Europe and north America think of as spring. The roman year, months and seasons were quite different from our version that we have now. Spring came much earlier for example and they had fewer months. Aside from ALL these factors, the hebrew calendar at the time was also different than our calendar is today, and the hebrew calendar still is different, although not as widely practiced anymore. So yes, your CLAIM is PURE SPECULATION.

Kernel Sanders said:
I take offense to that accusation and would like you to support it. What did I leave out? What did I misquote?
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I don't want to get into this, just read the last few postings between us more thoroughly, and please also read my post more thoroughly in the future and please post all relevant stuff and don't cherry pick your quoting of MY posts to your misuse just for the sake of debate.
Did you know I can predict the future btw? I have evidence of that..


Kernel Sanders said:
As I've said before (I'm getting tired of writing that), Christ's birth is celebrated on the 25th, but that is not when it occurred. That date was chosen centuries after the fact, and correlates with pagan celebrations just as the other non-religious rituals of the holiday. I'll ask one more time. Do you have any evidence to support a date of the 25th? 'That's when Christmas is' is not evidence.
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My bad, I had a dim memory of you actually saying that in a previous post.
I don't have any evidence. No one has any evidence for a certain(or very likely) date of the birth of Jesus Christ, what do you expect, it was after all thousands of years ago, we don't even know the actual year.
 
As much as I want to sit here debating shepherd's habits two millennia ago, I see some light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm going to take it

Maximus Zeebra said:
My bad, I had a dim memory of you actually saying that in a previous post.
I don't have any evidence. No one has any evidence for a certain(or very likely) date of the birth of Jesus Christ, what do you expect, it was after all thousands of years ago, we don't even know the actual year.
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This is really the crux of it. The Bible doesn't say when the birth occurred, either the year or the date or even a range. What historical analysis is possible is based entirely on a couple of passages in an inconsistent, vague book that has been altered countless times over the centuries. The only thing that can be said with certainty (well, 355/356 probability) is that December 25th is not the date of Jesus' birth. That date was chosen centuries after the fact, and if it isn't borrowing from existing pagan traditions then it's a hell of a coincidence.

When even the year is impossible to determine I think that we can agree that the belief that Dec 25th is the exact day of Jesus' birth is pretty unreasonable, especially given that the calendar itself has changed several times since Christ's time
 
Re: The easter bunny

ludahai said:
And where all of the arguments pointing to pagan origin were blown out of the snow.
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In your mind. :lol:
 
Kernel Sanders said:
When even the year is impossible to determine I think that we can agree that the belief that Dec 25th is the exact day of Jesus' birth is pretty unreasonable, especially given that the calendar itself has changed several times since Christ's time
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I never actually once claimed that that was his date of birth. Just said its celebrated as such. You claiming it was in the spring was kind of annoying tho. :lol:
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057861444-post34.html

Well, the WIDE belief is the 25th of December. Thats why people celebrate CHRISTmas, in honor of Jesus. It may or may not be that Christians have stolen the themes of Christmas from somewhere else, but it CERTAINLY is a FACT that Christmas is a celebration in honor of Jesus CHRIST(mas).. It isnt a fact that he was born 25th of December, nor in spring, nor anytime. We simply do not know that, but the wide BELIEF and accepted date is 25th of December. Thats just incontestable.
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Not contesting that it's the widely accepted date of celebrating Christmas. Just saying we shouldn't confuse that it's a traditional date (Dec 25th) and not to be confused with the actual date of Jesus' birth (read the link I offered in one of my prior posts).

As far as Dec 25th being a celebration in honor of Jesus it's not for most because now it's just another holiday designed to read "Twas the night before Christmas", watch "A Christmas Story" on tv, teach our children to believe in Santa Claus, sing carols, go see the lights and give gifts.
 
rsixing said:
As far as Dec 25th being a celebration in honor of Jesus it's not for most because now it's just another holiday designed to read "Twas the night before Christmas", watch "A Christmas Story" on tv, teach our children to believe in Santa Claus, sing carols, go see the lights and give gifts.
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I celebrate Christmas because its a family holiday, actually the main day of our celebration is the evening of 24th. We celebrate for several days and then everyone goes back to business at usual.
That however doesn't mean that Christmas is not a celebration of the birth of Jesus and in his honor, because it is.
 
kamino said:
/sigh
This day may not be on the exact same day as a pegan holiday but is very close to it, the same way easter is. I understand that you may be offended by people saying that chirstmas is not a christian holiday, it is. But at the same time it is MY beleif (i.e. not fact, so you can't get upset at me with MY beleif, or maybe you can) that being a christian allows many people not to accept facts and make up there own history, the same way the Japanese don't teach WW2 in school or the germans don't teach about the Holocost. So for your own pleasure, if you are not to proud or to stuborn I present to you some fun reading.
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The use of December 25 goes back as far as AD 200 and is consistant with the fact that the Annunciation is celebrated exactly nine months before.

All days are holy to God as He created all of them. To a Christian, a day is not pagan as pagans did not create them - God did. As Paul said, any day that is celebrated for God is accepted by Him.

The symbols that have been brought up in other threads ALL come into play centuries or even more than a millennium after the December 25th date came into use.
 
Cephus said:
Sure, why not? It's a secular holiday after all. There's nothing religious about Santa Claus and Christmas trees and giving presents and visiting with family and friends. The overwhelming majority of people, religious or not, celebrate Christmas secularly, any religious observation is done in addition to the secular holiday.

A better question might be, how many Christians actually practice any kind of religious observance on Christmas? I bet it's a pretty low number.
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Santa Claus = Saint Nicholas. Ever heard of him?
 
Kernel Sanders said:
At the time shepherds would not have had their flock out in the field at night during the winter. This is the only clue that the Bible gives as to the time of year, and it points to spring or summer.
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Just because it is "winter-like" in North America, doesn't mean it is everywhere else. Heck, I was out on my bike in shorts and short sleeves today. Not the entire world is hiddling indoors cringing from ice and snow like much of the US.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
Yes, yes it does. Keeping the sheep out in the field at night is something that shepherds of that time would only do during the spring and summer
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Care to provide any confirmation of this? Remember, the weather in Israel in December is NOT the same as it is in the US. Much of December can be rather warm there by US standards.
 
Cristina said:
The Pagan religion was around hundreds of years before Christianity, so it is more than likely that December 25 was a Pagan holiday, not a Christian one.
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Any proof of that? Besides, the Christian religion is an evolution from the Jewish faith, so the religious tradition we draw on goes back far before the arrival of Christ.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
As I've said before (I'm getting tired of writing that), Christ's birth is celebrated on the 25th, but that is not when it occurred. That date was chosen centuries after the fact, and correlates with pagan celebrations just as the other non-religious rituals of the holiday. I'll ask one more time. Do you have any evidence to support a date of the 25th? 'That's when Christmas is' is not evidence.
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The Annunciation to Mary is observed on the 25th of March. December 25 is exactly nine months later. Luke indicates that the Annunciation occurred in the sixth month. This has been interpretated two ways, but I have seen scholars who argue that this is the sixth month of the Jewish calendar - which falls in February/March. When the Annunciation to Mary is made, it indicates that she WILL conceive (in the future tense) implying that she had yet to conceive.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
At the time shepherds would not have had their flock out in the field at night during the winter. This is the only clue that the Bible gives as to the time of year, and it points to spring or summer.
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That's not entirely true. As I pointed out in a previous thread on this same topic the bible states Jesus was conceived when Elizabeth was in her 6 months of pregnancy with John the Baptist. So by finding out when John the Baptist was born you can find when Jesus was.

Here is what I said previously...
Gibberish said:
John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah [Luke 1:5] and it was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that his wife Elizabeth would have a child and after his service he traveled home and conceived John [Luke 1:8-13;22-24]. The course Abijah is the 8th course of the temple which starts the second sabbath of the third month, Sivan (May-June) [Chr 24:7-18]. So if Zacharias did indeed return home right after this service [Luke 1:23] then John was most likely conceived early July, nine months later John would have been born in March. Adding another six months, as Mary was 3 months pregnant at John's birth [Luke 1:26], Jesus would have been born in September.
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ludahai said:
The Annunciation to Mary is observed on the 25th of March. December 25 is exactly nine months later. Luke indicates that the Annunciation occurred in the sixth month. This has been interpretated two ways, but I have seen scholars who argue that this is the sixth month of the Jewish calendar - which falls in February/March. When the Annunciation to Mary is made, it indicates that she WILL conceive (in the future tense) implying that she had yet to conceive.
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We have already been through this. Luke states Elizabeth was "now in her sixth month" when the angel goes to speak to Mary.

Luke 1
24 And after these days Elisabeth his wife conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying,
25 Thus hath the Lord done unto me in the days wherein he looked upon me, to take away my reproach among men.
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

.. Mary speak with the Angel...

39 And Mary arose in these days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah;
40 and entered into the house of Zacharias and saluted Elisabeth.
 
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In most of the western world, Christmas is a national event. It is a cultural event for many and religous event for many. It has signifigance to our culture no matter what religion we belong to.

We need to be sure that there is always careful line between Church and State.

I am a christian but I called and spoke with three of my friends, one of them being a Moslem.

:2wave::cool::2wave:
 
Gibberish said:
That's not entirely true. As I pointed out in a previous thread on this same topic the bible states Jesus was conceived when Elizabeth was in her 6 months of pregnancy with John the Baptist. So by finding out when John the Baptist was born you can find when Jesus was.

Here is what I said previously...
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Actually, not all scholars agree on this point. There are also New Testament scholars who hold that the six months is a reference to the sixth month of the Jewish calendar, which would fall in February or March.

Also, even if it is the sixth months of Elizabeth's pregnancy, we don't know exactly when the conception would have taken place because the angel uses the future tense without indication of a timeline. Thus, we don't know how much time passed between the Annunciation and actual impregnation.
 
ludahai said:
Any proof of that? Besides, the Christian religion is an evolution from the Jewish faith, so the religious tradition we draw on goes back far before the arrival of Christ.
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What Jewish holiday falls on December 25?

The date itself was adopted by the Christian church to help the transition of pagans by replacing the Winter Solstice, the Yule, the celebration of Saturnalia and the celebration of the Unconquered Sun.
 
ludahai said:
Actually, not all scholars agree on this point. There are also New Testament scholars who hold that the six months is a reference to the sixth month of the Jewish calendar, which would fall in February or March.
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Of course they don't. Scholars disagree on every interpretation of the Bible. The context I am speaking of is backed though by the entire time line of Luke 1 being based upon Elizabeth's gestation of John. From conception, to 5 months, to 6 months, to 3 months later, to birth.

ludahai said:
Also, even if it is the sixth months of Elizabeth's pregnancy, we don't know exactly when the conception would have taken place because the angel uses the future tense without indication of a timeline. Thus, we don't know how much time passed between the Annunciation and actual impregnation.
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We do know that in response to the angel saying she will concieve Mary stated "And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." [Luke1:38].

Also, Elizabeth greets Mary when she arrives and gives her blessings as if Mary is already pregnant.

41 And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit;
42 and she lifted up her voice with a loud cry, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

The above appears that Mary is already pregnant. Also the fact that Mary stays with Elizabeth until John's birth and the next mention of Mary in Luke 2 Mary is "great with child".
 
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Gibberish said:
What Jewish holiday falls on December 25?

The date itself was adopted by the Christian church to help the transition of pagans by replacing the Winter Solstice, the Yule, the celebration of Saturnalia and the celebration of the Unconquered Sun.
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This is a Christian holiday, but haven't you noticed that there is a Jewish holiday that falls real close to December 25?
 
ludahai said:
Any proof of that? Besides, the Christian religion is an evolution from the Jewish faith, so the religious tradition we draw on goes back far before the arrival of Christ.
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"Christianity" is "Judaism" plus "Jesus" minus "old laws" minus "most of old testament" plus "lots of new stuff"
 
Gibberish said:
What Jewish holiday falls on December 25?
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Geez.; Did he ever say that? You are just distorting things as much as you can to make it fit you desire for Christmas to be a pagan celebration. IT JUST ISNT! Ok? Its not called Paganmas or Venusmas or Marsmas or anything like that is it? Its called CHRISTmas.
25th of December is not a Jewish holiday, but a Christian holiday. Get it?
 
ludahai said:
Sure. I didn't say Christianity WAS Judaism, just that it evolved FROM Judaism.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did. I just wanted to specify for other members of this thread so they don't misunderstand that as well.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Geez.; Did he ever say that? You are just distorting things as much as you can to make it fit you desire for Christmas to be a pagan celebration. IT JUST ISNT! Ok? Its not called Paganmas or Venusmas or Marsmas or anything like that is it? Its called CHRISTmas.
25th of December is not a Jewish holiday, but a Christian holiday. Get it?
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So It's ok to distort facts to back Christianity though? Did I ever say Christmas isn't a Christian holiday?

I said the date December 25 was chosen as the date for Christmas to help the transition from paganism to Christianity. What Christians celebrate on Christmas is indeed a Christian holiday now. Well, now it's more of a none religious celebration of giving then a Christian holiday but what Christians celebrate still holds true for them.
 
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