View Poll Results: Are you a non-Christian and still celebrate Christmas?

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Thread: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

  1. #31
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The day is NOT pagan. Every year this nonsense returns with people not knowing what they are really talking about. We don't know when Christ was born, but the celebration of the Mass of Christ on December 25 dates back some 18 centuries.

    All days were created by God, so how can the days be pagan? Read my quote to see the words of Saint Paul.
    /sigh
    This day may not be on the exact same day as a pegan holiday but is very close to it, the same way easter is. I understand that you may be offended by people saying that chirstmas is not a christian holiday, it is. But at the same time it is MY beleif (i.e. not fact, so you can't get upset at me with MY beleif, or maybe you can) that being a christian allows many people not to accept facts and make up there own history, the same way the Japanese don't teach WW2 in school or the germans don't teach about the Holocost. So for your own pleasure, if you are not to proud or to stuborn I present to you some fun reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by history.com
    An Ancient Holiday
    The middle of winter has long been a time of celebration around the world. Centuries before the arrival of the man called Jesus, early Europeans celebrated light and birth in the darkest days of winter. Many peoples rejoiced during the winter solstice, when the worst of the winter was behind them and they could look forward to longer days and extended hours of sunlight.

    In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

    The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

    In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by History.com
    Saturnalia
    In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

    Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

    In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

    By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  2. #32
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Sure, why not? It's a secular holiday after all. There's nothing religious about Santa Claus and Christmas trees and giving presents and visiting with family and friends. The overwhelming majority of people, religious or not, celebrate Christmas secularly, any religious observation is done in addition to the secular holiday.

    A better question might be, how many Christians actually practice any kind of religious observance on Christmas? I bet it's a pretty low number.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #33
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    The holiday is religious in the abstract, but the practice definitely is not for the majority of Americans, beyond an extra trip to church. The rest of the traditions are pretty devoid of religous significance. Even the religous kernel is off base, as it's pretty well accepted that the Biblical Jesus was born in the Spring.

  4. #34
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    The holiday is religious in the abstract, but the practice definitely is not for the majority of Americans, beyond an extra trip to church. The rest of the traditions are pretty devoid of religous significance. Even the religous kernel is off base, as it's pretty well accepted that the Biblical Jesus was born in the Spring.
    Quote Originally Posted by encyclopedia Britannica
    The precise origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is unclear. The New Testament provides no clues in this regard. December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date.
    Its pretty well accepted that Jesus was born on the 25th. Otherwise we would celebrate Christmas on the 25th of March.

    Quote Originally Posted by encyclopedia Britannica
    A second view suggests that December 25 became the date of Jesus’ birth by a priori reasoning that identified the spring equinox as the date of the creation of the world and the fourth day of creation, when the light was created, as the day of Jesus’ conception (i.e., March 25). December 25, nine months later, then became the date of Jesus’ birth. For a long time the celebration of Jesus’ birth was observed in conjunction with his baptism, celebrated January 6.
    Thats a second view. I dont really understand where you Americans get the idea the Christmas is not a celebration of Jesus, like a guy here said "CHRISTmas has nothing to do with Jesus".. And secondly that his birth was in March. I think its more widely accepted that its on 25th of December. I dont know of any celebrations on the 25th of March, and thats quite weird if its "widely" accepted that Jesus was born in March, especially considering there are more than 1.5 billion Christians in this world whom see Jesus as the most important thing in their religion, even more important than the 2 other parts of the "holy trinity".

    Christmas -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

    I don't believe in Jesus other than as a historically and obviously important figure, but just wanted to clear away some misunderstandings in this thread. But I guess this could go on forever with some of the people on this forum that refuse to accept facts or wide beliefs in favor of just disagreeing with everything I say..

    Where are you guys? Are you not going to troll this post as well?
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 12-27-08 at 06:32 PM.
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  5. #35
    Norville Rogers
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its pretty well accepted that Jesus was born on the 25th. Otherwise we would celebrate Christmas on the 25th of March.
    The Bible gives little information about the timing of the nativity. His birth is celebrated on the 25th, but it is completely impossible to determine the actual date. The closest supportable timeline is spring between 2-4 BC, based on a few biblical clues.

    Source [Wikipedia | Nativity of Jesus]

    The nativity accounts in the New Testament gospels of Matthew and Luke do not mention a date or time of year for the birth of Jesus. In Western Christianity, it has been traditionally celebrated on December 25 as Christmas (in the liturgical season of Christmastide), a date that can be traced as early as 330 among Roman Christians. Before then, and still today in Eastern Christianity, Jesus' birth was generally celebrated on January 6/7 (late at night on January 6th) as part of the feast of Theophany,[32] also known as Epiphany, which commemorated not only Jesus' birth but also his baptism by John in the Jordan River and possibly additional events in his life. Some scholars have speculated that the date of the celebration was moved in an attempt to replace the Roman festival of Saturnalia.[33] Some scholars note that Luke's descriptions of shepherds' activities at the time of Jesus' birth suggest a spring or summer date.[34] The theory that December 25 was the birthdate of Jesus was popularized by Sextus Julius Africanus in Chronographiai (AD 221).

    Matthew places Jesus' birth under the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC. Matthew also recorded that Herod had all the male children in Bethlehem two years old and younger executed (Matthew 2:16, see Slaughter of the Innocents), based on a prophecy relayed to him by the magi that a new King of the Jews had been born in the town. The order's instruction of "two and under", along with the inference that it took Herod time to realize that the magi were not about to deliver the child to him, implies a birth no later than 6-4 BC. Luke describes the birth as occurring during the census of Quirinius in AD 6, described by the historian Josephus. Most scholars consider Luke to be mistaken,[35] though some writers still attempt to reconcile his account with the details given by Josephus.[36]
    If you have any evidence supporting Dec 25th beyond 'that's when Christmas is' I'd love to see it. The Bible indicates a spring birth - only tradition says otherwise

  6. #36
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    More food for discussion on the tradition of Dec. 25th as the day celebrating Christ's birth and the more accurate date as provided by the HRCC from the Catholic Encyclodedia website New Advent (follow the link for the whole of the text):

    Date of the nativity of Jesus Christ


    At first sight it seems a simple thing to fix the date of the birth of Jesus Christ. Was it not in the beginning of the first year of the Christian Era? It was a monk of the sixth century, named Dionysius Exiguus (the Little) who fixed our present Christian Era, laying down that Jesus Christ was born on the 25th of December, A. U. C. 753, and commencing the new era from the following year, 754. That date, as we shall see, cannot be correct and, instead of being an improvement on, is further from the truth than the dates assigned by the early Fathers, St. Irenæus and Tertullian, who fixed the date of the Nativity in the 41st year of Augustus, that is to say, 3 years B. C., or a. U. C. 751. We must note first that St. Matthew says (ii, 1) that Our Saviour was born "in the days of King Herod". Josephus tells us (Antiquities, XVII, viii, 1), that Herod died "having reigned 34 years de facto since the death of Antigonus, and 37 years de jure since the Roman decree declaring him king". We know also that he began to reign in the consulship of Domitius Calvinus and Asinius Pollio, 40 B.C., in the 184th Olympiad (Ant., xiv, 5); and that he became king de facto in the consulship of Marcus Agrippa and Canidius Ballus, in the 185th Olympiad (Ant., XIV, xvi, 4). These calculations do not make it sure whether Herod died in the year 3, 4, or 5 B. C., but it is most probable that it was in the year 4 B.C. That date is corroborated by an eclipse of the moon which occurred (Ant., XVII, vi, 4) on the very night that Herod burnt Matthias alive, a few days before his own death; for there was an eclipse of the moon from 12 March to 13 March, 4 B.C. All this points to the fact that Herod died in the year 4 B. C., and that so Our Saviour must have been born before that date. In May, October, and December of the year 7 B. C., a conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn took place. Kepler, the astronomer, suggested that perhaps this phenomenon was connected with the star seen by the Magi (Matthew 2:2). But this idea is altogether too uncertain to be entertained seriously, or to form a basis for any reliable chronology. Nor can we come to any more definite conclusion from what St. Matthew says of the sojourn of the child Jesus in Egypt (ii, 14, 19, 22), where he remained till the death of Herod. Herod ordered a massacre of the children up to two years old according to the information about the date of the Nativity which he had received from the Magi. In itself there is nothing unlikely in that, for we know that Herod was a most cruel and whimsical man, having, for instance, summoned to his bedside all the principal men of the Jewish nation with a view to having them shot with darts at the moment of his death, so that there might be universal lamentation when he left this life. We do not, however, know what information Herod possessed as to the date of the Nativity, whether the Magi gave him accurate information, or whether they possessed it themselves; what the incident would seem to show was that Our Saviour was born some time before Herod's death, probably two years or more. So that, if Herod died in the year 4 B.C., we should be taken to 6 or 7 B.C. as the year of the Nativity.

  7. #37
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    The Bible gives little information about the timing of the nativity. His birth is celebrated on the 25th, but it is completely impossible to determine the actual date. The closest supportable timeline is spring between 2-4 BC, based on a few biblical clues.

    Source [Wikipedia | Nativity of Jesus]



    If you have any evidence supporting Dec 25th beyond 'that's when Christmas is' I'd love to see it. The Bible indicates a spring birth - only tradition says otherwise
    If you actually read the quotes from encyclopedia Britannica in my last post you wouldn't ask this question..
    Indicate spring? How? The weather? Sure is warm in Israel much of the year anyhow. But back to my last post, read it.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 12-27-08 at 09:06 PM.
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    If you actually read the quotes from encyclopedia Britannica in my last post you wouldn't ask this question..
    Indicate spring? How? The weather? Sure is warm in Israel much of the year anyhow. But back to my last post, read it.
    Max you need to separate the tradition of when Christmas is celebrated from when the facts show Jesus was born.


  9. #39
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by rsixing View Post
    Max you need to separate the tradition of when Christmas is celebrated from when the facts show Jesus was born.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057861444-post34.html (Non Christians Celebrating Christmas)

    Well, the WIDE belief is the 25th of December. Thats why people celebrate CHRISTmas, in honor of Jesus. It may or may not be that Christians have stolen the themes of Christmas from somewhere else, but it CERTAINLY is a FACT that Christmas is a celebration in honor of Jesus CHRIST(mas).. It isnt a fact that he was born 25th of December, nor in spring, nor anytime. We simply do not know that, but the wide BELIEF and accepted date is 25th of December. Thats just incontestable.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Non Christians Celebrating Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    If you actually read the quotes from encyclopedia Britannica in my last post you wouldn't ask this question..
    The Brittanica post does not offer evidence of a Dec 25th date, but rather explains one possible origin of that date, an origin that is devoid of supporting evidence.

    A second view suggests that December 25 became the date of Jesus’ birth by a priori reasoning that identified the spring equinox as the date of the creation of the world and the fourth day of creation, when the light was created, as the day of Jesus’ conception (i.e., March 25). December 25, nine months later, then became the date of Jesus’ birth. For a long time the celebration of Jesus’ birth was observed in conjunction with his baptism, celebrated January 6.
    I have never encountered any evidence that the Biblical Jesus was conceived on the same day that the world was created. If you have any I would like to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Indicate spring? How? The weather? Sure is warm in Israel much of the year anyhow. But back to my last post, read it.
    The springtime claim hinges on Luke 2:8

    8 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
    At the time shepherds would not have had their flock out in the field at night during the winter. This is the only clue that the Bible gives as to the time of year, and it points to spring or summer.

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