View Poll Results: See OP: Have the US soldiers committed a crime?

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  • Yes

    2 5.71%
  • No

    33 94.29%
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Thread: Is this a crime?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    There will always be war. There will always be people who want power, or whatever it is that other people have, and will be willing to kill to get it.

    The best we are ever going to be able to do is carve out areas of the world where Renaissance and Enlightenment principles reign, and where people are willing to fight to preserve them against those who don't share them.

    Unfortunately, those things -- the principles, and the willingness to defend them -- are being rotted from within at increasing speed. Could be that it's an inevitable cycle of human nature. I had only hoped I wouldn't live to see it.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    The real crime is the soldiers being there in the first place.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The real crime is the soldiers being there in the first place.

    A non-answer, masquerading as a sophomoric deflection

  4. #34
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The real crime is the soldiers being there in the first place.
    If that's a crime, if it was a wrong, then it should be undone, no? Everything put back as it was as if they were never there?

    Which means that the Baathist regime, in all of its facets, should be restored to full power in Iraq and returned a pre-2003 level of military power.

    Are you willing to have the courage of your convictions and say that?
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    2009-2016: Dissent is the highest form of racism.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Soldiers are under certain rules of engagement concerning civilians which are determined by their own leadership and sometimes in conjunction with the host country.

    The Geneva convention has no place in this discussion.
    Yes I think I was wrong, I didn't know what other rules were appliable

    It is dealing specifically with intentional killing of civilians out of combat. This does not cover accidental deaths or other collateral casualties. If a nations rules of engagement (ROE) allows for it, they could bomb a packed kindergarden schoolhouse to get to an enemy using the kids as human shields.

    However, countries like the United States and many European countries have strict ROE's dealing with civilians. After action reports are done after each fight and if a civilian gets himself shot it will be added to the report and investigated. Reprimands and charges will follow if there was severe negligence and a breaking of the ROE's. One of the biggest reasons why insurgents have moved their operations completely within cities is due to them knowing all about Western nation ROE's.

    Blackwater recently got into some serious trouble over this. Despite being in a dense civilian area they fired indiscriminately at everyone and employed class III destructive devices (grenade launchers) in the area which have specific restrictions on their use according to the contract Blackwater made with Iraqi leaders to let them use the launchers. Take in mind though that Private Military Contractors (PMC) have much stricter ROE's than the military.
    thanks for this post, it is interesting

  6. #36
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Iriemon, this is war! During war-time, it is either shoot or be shot.

    Iraq, is a battle field..

    And, in this area, there will never be peace as long as Islam exists..
    So what's your point? Soldiers can indiscriminately shoot civilians and that's fine, because this is war!?

    There wouldn't be peace whether Islam existed or not. If not them it's the Russians or the Germans or the Chinese or someone. Too many benefit from an external threat.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    They do now. It wasnt always that way.
    But, that civilians might suffer, is not an argument against war.
    It certainly is! Or should be.

  8. #38
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Scenario:
    -Present day
    -US soldiers in Iraq, fighting a group of insurgents.
    -US machinegun fire goes thru and then past the insurgents' position, striking a group of Iraqi civilians, killig several.

    Have the US soldiers committed a crime?
    The incident should be investigated since there was loss of civilian life, just as it would be investigated if US soldiers were killed/wounded.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    why? he's still responsible!

    when you kill someone while driving your car, it's not a "crime" but you still have killed someone and depending on the circumstances you could spend several years in jail

    => if he could not have seen the civilians, or if it was very unlikely to hit them, or if he was under enemy fire and was trying to protect himself and has not seen them, then OK he should not be sued

    but if it was obvious that there were civilians around the armed guy, he should not have opened fire
    Uh, Bub, the rules and laws are different in combat-- that's why you're allowed to kill people in combat. You do know that one is normally restrained for doing this, and that the law outside of combat frowns on this practice, yes?
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-23-08 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #40
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    I see there are no military personell who have responed to this so... In the military we, like police officers are taught to be mindful of where we fire, including of those that are behind our target. If we fire at our target and hit an inocent civilian then thats our butt. There would be much ut rage if a police officer fired at a bank robber and hit some poor kid in the back ground, it is that same for us. It is illegal and we are held accountable for it.
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