View Poll Results: See OP: Have the US soldiers committed a crime?

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    2 5.71%
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Thread: Is this a crime?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriemon View Post
    Tashah is exactly right. The hypothetical is far too vague to analyze.

    I'd say generally that the fact that a civilian is accidentally killed in a firefight is not grounds for criminal charges against soldier. But you could imagine lots of scenarios within the parameters of the OP and come of with different conclusions. What if the soldiers knew there were lots of civilians behind two insurgents that were likely to be killed in gun fire? What if they knew they could hold their fire without compromising their position while the civilians dispersed? What if the soldiers were mad about the loss of a buddy and decided to take down a few Iraqis while they were at it?
    A lot of what ifs there. If the soldiers were being threatened by 2 insurgents, even if civilians were standing behind them, I would not fault the soldiers for taking whatever actions necessary to save their own lives.
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  2. #22
    Banned Iriemon's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    A lot of what ifs there. If the soldiers were being threatened by 2 insurgents, even if civilians were standing behind them, I would not fault the soldiers for taking whatever actions necessary to save their own lives.
    That's a what if too. What if fire wasn't necessary to save their own lives?

    That's why the hypothetical is too vague to answer.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    The idea of applying normal, civilian standards of care to military operations is simply staggering in its asininity.

    But it IS symptomatic of the toxic levels of silliness and self-loathing Western civilization is displaying along the curve of its death spiral. I am glad I will not be around to witness the savage world in which the people 100 years from now are going to have to live. My only question is how bad it's going to get while I'm still here.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    A lot of what ifs there. If the soldiers were being threatened by 2 insurgents, even if civilians were standing behind them, I would not fault the soldiers for taking whatever actions necessary to save their own lives.
    As long as the soldiers were not deliberatly targeting said civilians, any civilian deaths caused by legitimate combat operations are not a crime.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The idea of applying normal, civilian standards of care to military operations is simply staggering in its asininity.

    But it IS symptomatic of the toxic levels of silliness and self-loathing Western civilization is displaying along the curve of its death spiral. I am glad I will not be around to witness the savage world in which the people 100 years from now are going to have to live. My only question is how bad it's going to get while I'm still here.
    Hmm.
    Someone understands the reasoning behind the poll...

  6. #26
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As long as the soldiers were not deliberatly targeting said civilians, any civilian deaths caused by legitimate combat operations are not a crime.
    What if the soldiers specific rules of engagement said no fire is allowed in situations where civilians injury was likely, and the soldiers knew civilian injury was likely even though they weren't targeting them?

  7. #27
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Soldiers are under certain rules of engagement concerning civilians which are determined by their own leadership and sometimes in conjunction with the host country.

    The Geneva convention has no place in this discussion. It is dealing specifically with intentional killing of civilians out of combat. This does not cover accidental deaths or other collateral casualties. If a nations rules of engagement (ROE) allows for it, they could bomb a packed kindergarden schoolhouse to get to an enemy using the kids as human shields.

    However, countries like the United States and many European countries have strict ROE's dealing with civilians. After action reports are done after each fight and if a civilian gets himself shot it will be added to the report and investigated. Reprimands and charges will follow if there was severe negligence and a breaking of the ROE's. One of the biggest reasons why insurgents have moved their operations completely within cities is due to them knowing all about Western nation ROE's.

    Blackwater recently got into some serious trouble over this. Despite being in a dense civilian area they fired indiscriminately at everyone and employed class III destructive devices (grenade launchers) in the area which have specific restrictions on their use according to the contract Blackwater made with Iraqi leaders to let them use the launchers. Take in mind though that Private Military Contractors (PMC) have much stricter ROE's than the military.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    People must understand these things.
    War is, in itself, a crime.
    Civilians , in a wrong place, suffer the most during war, even more that the soldiers.
    For the Jewish people, the wrong place was 99.99% of Europe..
    Generally, it has always been this way for thousands of years..
    Do not have war and the civilians will be safer - for a time....
    Its the Iraqi people, all of them, to the last man and woman, who will have to fight and stop the criminal/insurgents, and there will be huge amount of causalities.. .at first.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriemon View Post
    That's a what if too. What if fire wasn't necessary to save their own lives?

    That's why the hypothetical is too vague to answer.
    Iriemon, this is war ! During war-time, it is either shoot or be shot.

    Iraq, is a battle field..

    And, in this area, there will never be peace as long as Islam exists..

  10. #30
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    Re: Is this a crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    People must understand these things.
    War is, in itself, a crime.
    War is politics by other means. It is the only way to resolve certain issues, which, ultimately, all derive from human nature.
    Thus, war is a function of human nature, exercised on a societal scale.

    Civilians , in a wrong place, suffer the most during war, even more that the soldiers.
    They do now. It wasnt always that way.
    But, that civilians might suffer, is not an argument against war.

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