View Poll Results: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

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  • Yes we will see them and they are justified.

    5 7.81%
  • Yes we will see them but they will not be justified.

    4 6.25%
  • No we will not see them but they would have been justified.

    21 32.81%
  • No we will not see them and they would not have been justified.

    34 53.13%
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Thread: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

  1. #61
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Although your statement is more true than false, it is also un-American and irresponsible.

    According to history, it is very American to drop nuclear bombs on civilian cities. I appreciate the plea to keep the "white capitol on the hill" illusion but the only thing that is "un-American" is losing. Winning by any means necessary has always trumped the fantasies. Failure is forever remembered. Success is forgiven.

    "War crimes" is a matter of perception. And as long as America maintains the upper hand in this world, we will police ourselves. And apparently, with the examples of Presidential impeachments, open political investigations, and military court-martials, we police ourselves to a far better degree than everybody else.

    If you think differently, then compare your vision to the reality. The argument of what is and is not "un-American" is largely based on an illusion. Survival and victory is American.
    Last edited by MSgt; 12-21-08 at 06:25 PM.

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  2. #62
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    What in the world makes you think an international body needs our consent to prosecute one of our citizens?
    Because our laws trump theirs, any attempt to enforce international law on our sovereign shores would be an act of war, and we would destroy them if the attempt was made.
    If a trial went all the way through to a conviction and the international community was galvanized together and the majority of U.S. citizens agreed with it,
    That would be our consent.
    which they would,
    Doubtful.
    then our government would indeed give up the treasonist liar.
    How is he treasonist? Nevermind, you couldn't prove your case because their isn't one. And where is your proof the president lied? Nevermind, you don't have any.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #63
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Talk View Post
    IF your nation extrodites you. Which they dont do if they dont want you to get prosecuted.

    U know hwo many Israeli's we'd see on the stand if it were truley international?
    If your cursious, just check U.N general assembly motions condemining israeli atrocties. In an international system, ariel sharon for example, would have died in jail.
    The safe and self appointed voices of morality are always too eager to define the tactics of Israel as "criminal" while ignoring the obvious criminal tactics of its enemies.

    Did you know that despite how many times Hezbollah has used UN posts as a shield and how many times the UN has condemned the terrorist acts of Hezbollah, it only called for a disarmament for the first time in 2008? What does this tell you of the international body as a source of morality?

    With the Anglo-English speaking world (Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, United States) and the Netherlands labeling Hezbollah for what it is, why has the UN refused to acknwoledge it? The cowardice of the UN has always been quick to condemn from a far and demand morality only from those who offer reservation for morality.

    I'm not eager to see an international system like the UN to have anymore power than it has. And "let's be real." The UN has power because America gives it power. Otherwise, it's just a failed League of Nations.
    Last edited by MSgt; 12-21-08 at 06:52 PM.

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  4. #64
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Note: I am running late. I try to proofread longer posts for typos, but I just don't have time for a proper job at the moment

    Billo_Really has several times taken the effort to make substantive replies to some of my posts, and I wish to reciprocate, so I have elected to favor substance over style.
    -OC


    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    You're right, Christian evangelical's are more of a threat to this country than radical Islam. But maybe that will change when muslims get their own lobby groups like AIPAC.
    I shall simply leave it to others to digest this pearl.

    I oppose slavery in all forms. I oppose it in Virginia and Ancient Persia. Subjugating people is wrong no matter what part of history you live in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Why keep it "private"? Ask and you shall recieve.
    I wished to spare you embarrassment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    . . .

    My assessment was directed at the holier than thou way you debate. Do you really think your perspective is the right way to look at this situation? Or the only way? And what makes you think your argument is rational?
    Yes.
    No, but probably the best way.
    Because I really on history, facts, and experience. I study and analyze, I am suspicious of powerful emotion clouding judgment, because I have a deep understanding of the highs and lows of human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    . . . And quite frankly, it is pretty arrogant to speak as though my "emotions" are "heightened" or irrational just because I don't buy into your argument. You need to look at your own views and ask yourself, "Is a fanatical fringe group of another religion justification to kill over 1 million men, women and children in another country?"
    Militant Islam is hardly a fringe group. Note the support its victories enjoy in the mass Islamic population.

    The justification is long term survival, which for any country, trumps all other considerations, with the possible exception of virulent expansionism or conquest. For the latter concerns, occasionally a country will risk the former. For instance, Nazi germane, and Imperial Japan to cite recent examples.

    This is sad perhaps, but true. Pretty ideals or high sounding words have little change of altering this state of affairs in the foreseeable future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I could make the same case of "Western Civilization" being a threat to "Traditional Islam". After all, we're the ones who started bombing first. We started ****ing with them, before they started ****ing with us.
    Actually, it is rather short work to dismiss the argument that the West was the firth threat. Islamic aggression began at its inception, at a time when the west had yet to coalesce into an overarching super-culture.If we have become a threat to Traditional Islam, it is because the concepts of universal Human rights and Freedom are inimical to the benighted philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I will "take a stand" and fight anyone that is a threat to my country. . .
    Will you? Would you even recongize a threat until it was too late for any resistance other that an act of desperation? How, if you refuse to look at the evidence?


    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Again with the personal attacks. What makes you think that I haven't studied?
    I make no personal attacks. Indeed my patience with you should be seen as a sign that I believe that you have intelligence worthy of appealing to.

    I consider you, and others on the Left to be victims who have been taught or allowed to suppress analytical thought in favor of rhetoric and emotionalism.

    I believe that you have been taught to consciously or subconsciously judge reality by how beautiful, pleasant, or satisfying a particular assertion is, instead of its objective merit. An example is the idea of equality among religions, philosophies and societies -- a lovely sounding lie.

    Or, to make another example, creating champions of evil to battle, (Neo-Cons, Conservatives, Evangelicals,) because one does not really believe that such groups could ever harm them: a comforting belief. To address actual foes that truly wish to inflict real harm is a very discomforting notion from which many are taught to flee.

    As to what makes me think you haven't studied. . . well, I think I will just pass on answering that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    . . . And a "fact" is nothing more than an "agreement" between two people.
    . . .
    Whoever taught you this deserves punishment.

    This single idea that has been foisted on you is one of the most vicious assaults on your mind that I hope you ever have to endure. U would almost equate it with a rape.

    This is a concept to be taught to a slave.

    A fact exists irregardless of anyone's opinion. I hope that you come to accept this a some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Didn't you already say this above?
    I may have. Repetition is a low-level instructional technique that seems to be indispensable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I don't have to study the specific differences of the various religions. They are not a threat to this country. You're more of a threat than they are!
    Please reconsider your lack if interest in study. I appreciate you belief in my power and influence, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    You're trying to say the Bush Doctrine is justified because of another cultures fanatics. I'm saying that every culture has fanatics and that they are a police issue, not a national security one.
    There is almost too much here to respond to in a short post. I would ask you to consider though what happens whet the fanatics count among their memebers the police in a country, such as in Nazi Germany.

    And are you aware that the Police in our country are neither trained nor equipped to deal with say, an insurgency? The Military however is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    By all means, if you want to suggest something worth reading, I welcome all of it. I learn something new every day of my life. The more I know, the more I find out what I don't know.
    I posted material above. I'd be more than honored if you'd peruse some of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I'm not one of those people who put so much stock into their political views, they never admit to being wrong. I'm one of the few posters on this website who has actually come out and apologized for being wrong on a particular issue. Some around here think that is tantamount to death. I think it's just another part of life, 50% of the time.
    You are to be commended for these traits, and I do so now without reservation.


    Now an aside.
    I am not the terrible person you mat think. I am someone who gives a great deal of thought to what goes wrong in human affairs and how it might have been avoided once past.

    I have a visceral detestation for the waste of human potential.

    I vastly prefer to live in peace with everyone and for countries to do likewise. But I realize that the power to make peace is almost entirely in the hands of the aggressor. That is, no matter how much we may want peace, if another entity wants war, or even limited violence, it is almost impossible to deny them.

    I support the notion of preemptive war, because once hostility is inevitable, I want to see the damage limited for the party that did not originally promote hostilities. Doing otherwise is to allow innocents to bear the burden of an ethical code held by the leaders.

    When I am being abrasive in some of these posts, it usually stems from what I said above, I am deeply offended by the mental habits that have been instilled in many of the young in the West. I am not a conspiracy nut, but there are momenmts when I wonder what has led to such a degredation in the teaching of hard thinking.
    Perhaps we'll find fertile ground for agreement on other topics.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-21-08 at 08:18 PM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    It's more like the only ones who are arguing against war crimes trials are those treasonous American's who give blind allegiance to the flag much like the Christian Germans did with Hitler in Weimar Germany many years ago. I think you'd make a very good German. Never question. Always obey. The government is always right, even when it's wrong. If the government doesn't abide by the Supreme Law of the Land, it's okay. I really don't see how you sleep at night or tell people you're an American citizen. Because the things you say are un-American and the things you do show that you really don't care about your civic duty to this country.
    The only ones calling for a war crimes trial are you wacko koolaid drinking die hard Bashers(one only has to look at your gallery to see that you are a die hard bush basher).Your reasons for wanting war crime trials on Bush has to do with your hatred for Bush. You probably hopped on every Bush basher band wagon the Bush stole election band wagon, the Bush went AWOL bandwagon, and the Bush lied to get us into Iraq band wagon. So I will take what you and every other wacko die hard Bush basher has to say regarding patriotism. I find it odd that a leftist like yourself would use a nazi anology when leftist like to cite Godwins law.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #66
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by MachuPicchu View Post
    I said that for ME it's not a right vs left issue.
    If you honestly believe that then you are delusional.

    And it's hardly just the die hard Bush bashers, Cindy Sheehans, etc. that are calling for it too. But go ahead and keep thinking that.
    Yes it is the die hard Bush bashers, Cindy Sheehans , code pinks, and other wackos.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #67
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    And where is your proof the president lied? Nevermind, you don't have any.
    I always find it amusing when the Die hard Bush Bashers falsely claim that Bush lied to get us into Iraq. They seem to conveniently forget that even democrats themselves said Saddam had WMDs and this was before Bush was even in office, that Saddam has had WMDs before and has used them, that Saddam kept blocking UN inspectors and gave the impression that he did have WMDs. With those things in mind anyone who says Bush lied to get us into Iraq is either a koolaid drinking liar or a kooliad drinking ****en moron.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 12-21-08 at 09:42 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #68
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I always find it amusing when the Die hard Bush Bashers falsely claim that Bush lied to get us into Iraq. They seem to conveniently forget that even democrats themselves said Saddam had WMDs and this was before Bush was even in office, that Saddam has had WMDs before and has used them, that Saddam kept blocking UN inspectors and gave the impression that he did have WMDs. With those things in mind anyone who says Bush lied to get us into Iraq is either a koolaid drinking liar or a kooliad drinking ****en moron.
    exactly right
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  9. #69
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    The issue is not one of left/right but one of the rule of law, if Bush/Cheney/Rove have broken American laws or laws that are internationally, legally binding then I think its a no brainer, they should be charged according.

    If they have done nothing wrong then they should not fear criminal justice proceedings against them.

    Rove was subpoenad to appear before congress, and upon his no-show was held in contempt of congress (around June 08), the no show was (under the constitution of the United States of America) an illigal act and it is a legal requirement of congress to send marshalls to arrest him and bring him before congress to answer the question put to him.

    The question is should Rove face the charges against him? I cannot see how the answer can be anything but yes.

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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Please do some research, The CIA paied for, organized, trained, and equiped the backbone of modern day 'Islamic extremeist' groups especially through the ISI (the inteligence arm of the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan, who your government gives millions of $s in military aid to every year).

    If you cannot see when your government and corporate media are constructing a threat to take away your liberties you should not be reading at all, let alone the hate filled, fear mongering tripe/anciend history that you posted as you 'reading list'.

    Please go and read the US PATRIOT act and ask yourself who is the biggest threat to your constitution, 2000 year old marauding arab armies in Europe, or a government that has legally trashed the document of your founding fathers.

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