View Poll Results: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

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  • Yes we will see them and they are justified.

    5 7.81%
  • Yes we will see them but they will not be justified.

    4 6.25%
  • No we will not see them but they would have been justified.

    21 32.81%
  • No we will not see them and they would not have been justified.

    34 53.13%
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Thread: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

  1. #41
    wʜɪтe яussɪaи Tashah's Avatar
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Genocide itself is no worse than the strife and warfare which create it, and strife and warfare are natural and necessary parts of the human condition.
    I disagree. Purposefully exterminating a people or a nation is well beyond the scope and bounds of modern warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Besides, what good does this mechanism accomplish, when it is only used in the fashion that I have described? How is it inhibiting genocide in the Sudan, Rwanda, or Zimbabwe? What good will it do when the American death count in Iraq surpassed Saddam's?
    It is of course impossible to determine genocidal actions that were averted simply because harsh consequences exist. If one embraced your position, one could also posit that laws against any felony are no more than contrivances because they do not totally inhibit criminal activity.

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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    We won't see any prosecutions. War crimes prosecutions are for countries that lose wars on their home turf, and they're nothing more than a means for victorious countries to install more pliable governments once they're ready to withdraw.

    Noone's going to win a war on American soil in the immediate future, and both Bush and Cheney are probably going to be dead in their graves before it ever happens.
    You forget, the faction has lost a (political) war on home turf to internal political forces, and these forces may want them handed over.
    Im not syaing its very likely. But it is possible.
    I mean, if the republicans went after clinton for ****ing around, youd think that the clintons might want some pay back right? Just for one example.

    Id like to see it happen. But I dont think obama's gona do it.
    Ill tell u one thing tho. I want him to WAIT untill theyre ACTUALY out of office. Get them OUT OF POWER properly, and thenf eed them to the wolves.
    Thats what id do.
    Last edited by Real Talk; 12-21-08 at 03:19 AM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    Your post suggests an unfamiliarity with the facts.

    Present your case without the typical piling on of the emotional, rhetorical useless BS that many zealots often do when trying to make their case, ok?

    If you please, (and if you can) just include the kind of charges you'd anticipate and the example of how you think Bushco might have been guilty.
    War crimes arent even nececary.
    Just treason.
    He lied to the american public to lead them to war.
    Thats treason. Nuff said.
    Death penalties all round.

  4. #44
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Purposefully exterminating a people or a nation is well beyond the scope and bounds of modern warfare.
    I'd argue that the scope and bounds of modern warfare are best determined by observing what occurs in modern warfare. Attempted genocide appears to be relatively common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    It is of course impossible to determine genocidal actions that were averted simply because harsh consequences exist. If one embraced your position, one could also posit that laws against any felony are no more than contrivances because they do not totally inhibit criminal activity.
    It may be impossible to determine, but given the occurrences that we see and the way that they are conducted without so much as a slap on the wrist... I do not think that very many genocidal actions are prevented at all.

    And I might point out that while laws against felonies are not 100% effective, at least they are enforced as something other than a matter of political expedience-- and sometimes, they are even enforced when it would be inconvenient to do so. This is certainly not the case with "war crimes".

  5. #45
    wʜɪтe яussɪaи Tashah's Avatar
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I'd argue that the scope and bounds of modern warfare are best determined by observing what occurs in modern warfare. Attempted genocide appears to be relatively common.
    I would suggest that you peruse the definition of genocide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It may be impossible to determine, but given the occurrences that we see and the way that they are conducted without so much as a slap on the wrist...
    I highly doubt these Rwandan generals consider their sentence a slap on the wrist...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/africa...ng-hailed.html (Rwandan genocide jailing hailed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And I might point out that while laws against felonies are not 100% effective, at least they are enforced as something other than a matter of political expedience--
    I would point out that modern war crimes trials are prosecuted by the UN and are international in character.

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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Now don't go off in a huff.

    The evidence is as I took pains to express, readily available and indeed it is up to you to avail yourself of the painfully abundant data.

    Since you lump all religions together, you have made it clear that you are not yet ready to employ serious consideration of these issues. Perhaps some later maturity will incline you towards a study of the differences between for instance, Protestantism, which is generally not involved with decapitating hostages, and Militant Islam, which is.

    I understand, we all have things that are fearful to face.

    The course of wisdom though, is to allow the more courageous, and informed to deal with the more painful and difficult issues that civilization faces.

    Please feel free to comment when you have addressed certain obvious and prominent vacuities in your awareness, where these issues are concerned.
    Dude, you keep seeing things that aren't there and reading things I didn't post. I treat all religions the same. I don't buy into this bull**** about Islam being bad. And people that try to build a case against Islam, by saying it is a criminal religion that has to be stopped at all costs, are seriously mentally disturbed. Or they're the biggest pussy's on the planet. I don't fear Islam, I don't fear religions and I certainly don't fear you. I had to leave because I had **** to do.

    I find your posts to be classic examples of arrogance and conceit. You think you know and I know you don't! You act like you do, but its just an act. You play this little word game of misdirecting the conversation to being about me. But it's not about me, it's about you and your reaction to me. Why do you feel the need to make stuff up? Why can't you just have a conversation? What are you afraid of? Oh, I remember, Islam.
    Last edited by Billo_Really; 12-21-08 at 04:30 AM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Meh. The concept of "war crimes" was a farce when it was invented, and the first convictions and executions on the basis of "war crimes" were ex post facto. They are nothing more than an excuse for the winners of a war to execute the losers. Saddam Hussein would still be in power with full American support for his "crimes" if he had not threatened former President Bush's oil interests in Kuwait in 1991.

    Call me un-American if you wish; frankly, I don't put much stock in being an American anymore. I am still here only because my family is here and because no other country will have me.

    The President of the United States is responsible only to the citizens of the United States. While I would happily argue that he has failed spectacularly in his duties to his people, his failures are no more spectacular than former President Carter's. Neither gentleman has failed his country badly enough to deserve the indignity of a show trial followed by a summary execution, or worse, the humiliation of a life sentence in a foreign prison.
    Your argument doesn't wash. Because the purpose of a war crimes trial is not to kill Iraqis. The purpose of the trial is because we killed Iraqis. So by your definition, if we are the winners, we'd be putting them (the losers) on trial. We're not. And if we ever did go to trial, it would be the winners who are charged. And the charges would be over torture, not genocide. Or do you think its okay to torture people?

  8. #48
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Genocide itself is no worse than the strife and warfare which create it, and strife and warfare are natural and necessary parts of the human condition.
    Dude, that's pretty hard core!

  9. #49
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I treat all religions the same.
    For what possible Earthly reason, since they are in fact not the same at all?

    This is, to my mind, a very peculiar position indeed. To illustrate, I oppose slavery in all its forms. But I would not equate the practice of slavery in Virginia in 1850, with the practice of slavery in a Ancient Persia. I can opposes both institutions, but I would have certain problems in moral judgment if I held the same opinion of both.

    Religions vastly differ from each other, and command different responses from the religious and the irreligious. And unless you are out of touch with objective reality, which hopefully you are not, you must know this.

    You can even test your awareness. Which case in each of these pairs would surprise you more:
    1. a Catholic Cardinal calling for the eradication of a non-Catholic state, by violence if necessary.
    2. an Islamic Imam calling for the eradication of a non-Islamic state, by violence if necessary.
    1. a Jewish youth blowing himself up with an explosive belt in a crowded restaurant of Buddhists because he thinks this will get him into paradise.
    2. a Muslim youth blowing himself up with an explosive belt in a crowded restaurant of Hindus because he thinks this will get him into paradise.
    1. A Jehovah's Witness posting a video in which he slowly cuts off the head of a telephone repairman of foreign origin who came into his neighborhood.
    2. A Muhammadan posting a video in which he slowly cuts of the head off a telephone repairman of foreign origin who came into his neighborhood.
    Feel free to keep the results of this little test private, it you don't wish to post the honest results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I don't buy into this bull**** about Islam being bad. And people that try to build a case against Islam, by saying it is a criminal religion that has to be stopped at all costs, are seriously mentally disturbed. Or they're the biggest pussy's on the planet. I don't fear Islam, I don't fear religions and I certainly don't fear you. I had to leave because I had **** to do.
    Again, your ecumenicism is is ill advised. As I have state before, it behooves you to make at least some small study of the tenants of mainstream and militant Islam, before declaring them harmless.

    You assessment that people who disagree with you are mentally disturbed is an example of the typical leftist mindset that equates heightened emotion with rational argument.

    I do agree that you should not fear me. I am the one trying to present to you a rational, knowledge based position. Reason is not to feared, nor are reasonable people. (In more enlightened times, they are to be emulated.)

    I find it very difficult to make a rational response to a position based upon willful blindness. Traditional Islam is a threat to the precepts of Western Civilization. This is a simple fact, whether one has the courage to address the issue, or retreat into comforting denials.

    The time may come in your lifetime when you'll have to take a stand and choose a side. It is interesting to wonder what you would do in such a situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I find your posts to be classic examples of arrogance and conceit. You think you know and I know you don't! You act like you do, but its just an act. You play this little word game of misdirecting the conversation to being about me. But it's not about me, it's about you and your reaction to me. Why do you feel the need to make stuff up? Why can't you just have a conversation? What are you afraid of? Oh, I remember, Islam.
    Very, very good! Perhaps anger will motivate study. This could be a turning point.

    I'm not actually terribly arrogant, but I am addressing facts, which are perhaps the most arrogant things in Creation. I do appreciate being thought of as a classic, however.

    As for me "knowing," well to be frank, this is the state of mind one enters into when one has spent some time and effort learning facts. I advise everyone to try it.

    To be perfectly honest, I have grown very tired of modern liberal thought that seem to believe that denial makes truth, emotional assertion makes fact, and a shallow pronouncement of moral relativism evokes a strong character.

    Now once again, if you are serious about making relevant and well founded statements on subjects such as these, I direct you first to a study of the Koran and Hadith, and the principles of traditional Islam, and certainly the pronouncements of leading militant Muslim clerics which guide the Islamic faithful.

    I would expect thatyou can direct your own studies, but I can provide an elementary reading list on request.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-21-08 at 05:37 AM. Reason: typos

  10. #50
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    Re: Will we see war crime prosecutions, and are they justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Information may flow freely, but were it absorbed freely, I expect that the general public in the West would be so terrified by what they learned of Militant Islam, that they might well laud Bush an Cheney as the heroes of the age, and demand greater military action.
    That's exactly what Bush was hoping to accomplish... have you actually READ the bible (assuming that you are a believer in the bible)? I ask because Islam is comparable in terms of it's advocacy of violence by and for 'god'... while we individually are tolerant of other religions, the churches themselves are quite intolerant of other beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    He's an idiot whose opinions should matter not to anyone who values American sovereignty and american Primacy.
    I love how people just say 'oh that guys an idiot so his argument is irrelevant' and then will take that article in the future to call that position 'debunked'.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I think you are lying but if he did that-you would blame the shotgun.
    Nah, I would only blame the shotgun if I pulled the trigger and it backfired (maybe my own stupidity for not checking it first). I personally believe that there are TOO MANY gun laws... and so what if people are out shooting each other... it's called 'natural selection' for a reason... if you decide to be in a gang you are naturally more likely to be selected to be shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Ad hominum's are one of the most favorite debating technique's at this website.
    Especially when it comes to unpopular viewpoints... where unpopular might as well equal : stupid, un-american, tinfoil, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    You're post is foolishness, of course.

    The information on the nature of Militant Islam is freely available. The serious student is advised to begin with a study of the Koran, Hadith and current popular movements in Traditional Islamic regimes, and to set aside the comfortable, and objectionable modern tendency amongst the fearful to invent imaginary evils instead of confronting actual ones.

    Courage is essential to survival in a hostile world, after all. A few moments of honest reflection will reveal the wisdom of this fact to all but the most intransigently timid.

    A Perusal of the history of Islamic conquest is from the Middle Ages forward is also not to be neglected.

    Carry on.
    Most major religions are similar in their stories and messages. and all seem to contain the same tales of 'God' on earth doing ungodly things.

    Now, ignoring this is not the solution, and I'm not quite certain WHAT the solution IS, BUT you'd expect that for a country that calls itself 'civilized' that we'd be above the need for a new 'crusade'

    Becoming a monster to kill a monster still leaves you with a monster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Now don't go off in a huff.

    The evidence is as I took pains to express, readily available and indeed it is up to you to avail yourself of the painfully abundant data.

    Since you lump all religions together, you have made it clear that you are not yet ready to employ serious consideration of these issues. Perhaps some later maturity will incline you towards a study of the differences between for instance, Protestantism, which is generally not involved with decapitating hostages, and Militant Islam, which is.
    It's not to lump all religions togethe, but to say that many religions carry many common threadx.

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