View Poll Results: What is "common sense" gun control?

Voters
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  • Federal registration of guns

    16 47.06%
  • Federal licensing of gun owners

    13 38.24%
  • Instant background checks for dealer transfers

    18 52.94%
  • Instant background checks for private transfers

    15 44.12%
  • 5-day waiting periods for handgun purchases

    10 29.41%
  • 5-day waiting period for all gun purchases

    9 26.47%
  • Ban guns from felons and those adjudicated ‘mentally infirm’

    25 73.53%
  • Ban handguns

    2 5.88%
  • Ban ‘assault weapons’

    4 11.76%
  • Other (specify)

    11 32.35%
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Thread: What is "common sense" gun control?

  1. #191
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    There's another crime involved. The illegal sale of a firearm.
    That is the crime that can be prevented by background checks, IMO. It's not on eht ebuyer, it's on the seller.
    I believe the legal requirement is that the seller cannot sell to anyone that he has a reasonable suspicion of not being able to legally own a firearm. His recourse then is to not sell the firearm.

    The right to bear arms is a right, the right to distribute arms for profit is not a right.
    Correct.

  2. #192
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I believe the legal requirement is that the seller cannot sell to anyone that he has a reasonable suspicion of not being able to legally own a firearm. His recourse then is to not sell the firearm.
    Yeah, but if the Laws can read that if the seller has not used all the resources available to him to determine the eligibility of the purchaser, then he is in violation of the law.

    The law can be written as such that anyone who chooses to not receive the background check must be assumed to be a felon unless otehr evidence is given proving otherwise.

    Much like an ID in a bar. If the person refuses to show ID, then the assumption must be made by the bar owner that the person is inelligable for alcohol even if they appear to be over the age.

    Backround checks would only need be perfromed at most once per year.

    The major issue against background checks, as I see it, is that they can be used to track who gets weapons and of what type.

    Admittedly, that's a bit sketchy, as far as I'm, concerned. Maybe felons should have an "F" for felon placed somewhere on their ID cards that alerts the gun sellers of their ineligability. Then all that would be needed is to show valid ID and if there is no "F", then the person is legal. That way, any felons caught with a fake ID for the purpose of getting firearms can be prosecuted for another felony, and legal gun owners won't be faced with the potential evils inherent in background checks?

    Any thoughts on that idea?
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  3. #193
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Yeah, but if the Laws can read that if the seller has not used all the resources available to him to determine the eligibility of the purchaser, then he is in violation of the law.
    Except that the resource isnt available if it infringes on the right of the purchaser.

    The law can be written as such that anyone who chooses to not receive the background check must be assumed to be a felon unless otehr evidence is given proving otherwise.
    So, when you want to exercise a right, you're considered guilty until proven innocent?

    Much like an ID in a bar. If the person refuses to show ID, then the assumption must be made by the bar owner that the person is inelligable for alcohol even if they appear to be over the age.
    I would agree that if you refuse to show your ID, you cannot buy a gun.

    The major issue against background checks, as I see it, is that they can be used to track who gets weapons and of what type.
    This is true, and is why federal law requires the records to be destroyed after a short time (30 days?).

    Admittedly, that's a bit sketchy, as far as I'm, concerned. Maybe felons should have an "F" for felon placed somewhere on their ID cards that alerts the gun sellers of their ineligability. Then all that would be needed is to show valid ID and if there is no "F", then the person is legal.
    I'm sure the ACLU would protest.
    Otherwise, it would work just fine.

  4. #194
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Except that the resource isnt available if it infringes on the right of the purchaser.


    So, when you want to exercise a right, you're considered guilty until proven innocent?
    Unfortunately, that's how it works outside of a court often enough. Such as with ID in bars.


    I would agree that if you refuse to show your ID, you cannot buy a gun.


    This is true, and is why federal law requires the records to be destroyed after a short time (30 days?).


    I'm sure the ACLU would protest.
    Otherwise, it would work just fine.

    Yeah, the ACLU picks some battles that ain't worth it sometimes. Even better, Create a database of all the registered felons (like the Sex-pradator database) for everyone who is prevented form owning a firearm. Let the selller crossreference the ID with that data base, in house, no records kept, and if the ID shows a red flag, no gun.

    Then, have the database get updated monthly.

    It's not a background check, its just checking to see if the ID fits the negative database.


    So the gun purchaser shows their ID. The seller looks in the data base for that particulat ID # and if it shows up, no sale. If it doesn't, sale.

    It prevents any infringement on the purchaser and also prevents the illegal sale of firearms.

    I'm liking this idea, actually.
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  5. #195
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You are right -- this has been asked and answered.

    You think you can use the law to keep people from breaking the law -- that is, that you can pre-empt crime. In this case, the crime is the illegal purchase of a firearm.

    The entire concept behind prior restraint is that you cannot infringe on the rights of people 'because they might' commit a crime, or 'just in case' they commit a crime -- you have to wait until they actually DO commit a crime before you can act.

    You then enforce the law that was broken and punish the person that broke it.
    Thanks. I will go back as time allows and read the responses.

  6. #196
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Yeah, the ACLU picks some battles that ain't worth it sometimes. Even better, Create a database of all the registered felons (like the Sex-pradator database) for everyone who is prevented form owning a firearm. Let the selller crossreference the ID with that data base, in house, no records kept, and if the ID shows a red flag, no gun.

    Then, have the database get updated monthly.

    It's not a background check, its just checking to see if the ID fits the negative database.
    As long as the check isnt required by law, that's OK.

  7. #197
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As long as the check isnt required by law, that's OK.
    What if it required by law for the seller? I don't see how that is a presumption of ghuilt or a violation of rights.

    Maybe I'm missing something in my logic.

    Let's say that the seller doesn't check, but he sells the weapon anyway. That person who purchased the weapon would only be guilty of a crime if they are a felon (possesion of an unlawful weapon). But the seller would be guilty of not checking the ID. They could be punished for this, much like not asking for ID when selling Cigarrette's is a crime.

    The purchaser holds no obligations, but the seller does.

    I don't see how that would be a constitutional violation. Technically the seller could choose to violate this law, and the purchaser is unaffected.
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  8. #198
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    What if it required by law for the seller? I don't see how that is a presumption of ghuilt or a violation of rights.
    If its required by law, then its no different than a normal background check -- either way, the law requires the buyer to wait to exercise his right.

  9. #199
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If its required by law, then its no different than a normal background check -- either way, the law requires the buyer to wait to exercise his right.
    Hmmmm... I see this one as being a little bit grayer than normal. The law technically doesn't require the buyer to do anyhting excpet show ID. The ID number is entered into the closed system database and then the the notice comes up clear or felon. It should be no longer than 10-15 seconds real time considering that there would not be any tranfer of information outside of the gun shop.

    There is no requirement on the purchaser outside of showing ID, and there is no presumption of guilt.

    I think if this were implemented, I would support it on the grounds that it is prevention of the illegal sale of weapons and does not create any punishment or real impediment (such as invasion of privacy that occurs from a full background check) for law abiding citizens. All it does is confirm that which is assumed (that they are law abiding).

    I see it as OK because:

    1. It could legitimately prevent felons form getting guns
    2. It could not prevent law-abiding citizens from obtaining weapons.
    3. It places the burden on the sellers, not the buyers.


    It would probably be easier in the long run to just put the "F" on the ID for felons though and make people show ID to purchase weapons. If the ACLU was against that, screw em. It's no different than the sexual predator database.
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  10. #200
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    Re: What is "common sense" gun control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Hmmmm... I see this one as being a little bit grayer than normal. The law technically doesn't require the buyer to do anyhting excpet show ID. The ID number is entered into the closed system database and then the the notice comes up clear or felon. It should be no longer than 10-15 seconds real time considering that there would not be any tranfer of information outside of the gun shop.
    Aside from the transfer of information ourside the shop (which is irrelevant), this doesnt at all differ from a norman NICS check.
    In both cases, the state requires that the buyer wait while an actor of the state checks his background. Its still prior restraint.

    It would probably be easier in the long run to just put the "F" on the ID for felons though and make people show ID to purchase weapons
    .
    I would very much be OK with this.

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