Do you object to gay couples adopting?

rsixing said:

No offense meant but it's your type of argumentation that makes issues, like this, so polarized and divisive. What I mean is both sides are using logic and reason in their opposition or support of gay adoption.

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What makes this so divisive is the State of Florida encouraging gay couples to become foster parents, but fighting fiercely to prevent them from adopting. Think about that. Why would the state do that? What's behind it? Possibly it is this type of thinking, where there is no logic or reason:

Oftencold said:

I also disapprove of your choice to bring children into what I consider to be an unhealthy environment, no matter how loving.

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tryreading said:

What makes this so divisive is the State of Florida encouraging gay couples to become foster parents, but fighting fiercely to prevent them from adopting. Think about that. Why would the state do that? What's behind it? Possibly it is this type of thinking, where there is no logic or reason:

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I actually touched upon a number of points of logic and reason in previous posts. But if it makes you feel better to ignore them, who am I to object?

Carry on.

tryreading said:

What makes this so divisive is the State of Florida encouraging gay couples to become foster parents, but fighting fiercely to prevent them from adopting. Think about that. Why would the state do that? What's behind it? Possibly it is this type of thinking, where there is no logic or reason:

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Yes. I have to agree with you on these points. Well said.

Oftencold said:

I actually touched upon a number of points of logic and reason in previous posts. But if it makes you feel better to ignore them, who am I to object?

Carry on.

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You 'think' gay parent households are 'unhealthy,' right?

But if you look at the data on heterosexual marriage, most end in divorce, most married heterosexuals cheat on their spouse at some point, and some of them are just plain bad parents.

I don't believe that homosexual parents are worse examples to their children than the above class of 'traditional' people are.

tryreading said:

You 'think' gay parent households are 'unhealthy,' right?

But if you look at the data on heterosexual marriage, most end in divorce, most married heterosexuals cheat on their spouse at some point, and some of them are just plain bad parents.

I don't believe that homosexual parents are worse examples to their children than the above class of 'traditional' people are.

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According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America the divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%. That hardly qualifies as 'most'. Others rate them lower, some higher.

Sure would be interested in some date for the rate of homosexual couples staying together.

Edited to add this link I found.

Oftencold said:

It occurs to me that these "studies," cannot be terribly extensive, since the practice has only been allowed in most states for a short number of years.


Also "proof" is a term with a fairly high standard. Your probably on much safer ground if you say that studies (which you did not actually cite,) "indicate," or "support" a position.

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I said "proof" which is what I meant. The number of studies that I have reviewed have shown similar outcomes. This constitutes as solid evidence. Further, though this practice has not been around for an extraordinarily lengthy time, it has been around long enough for some longitudinal studies to exist, and for these children to be studied into adolescence and young adulthood.

It should also be noted that in the current political climate, studies not supporting the new orthodoxy, that is that homosexual parents are at least as good for the children as heterosexual children, are very unlikely to find wide publication or a positive reception.

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Or they do not exist. Or they have methodology problems. Or they are few and far between.

This position may be illustrated by this excerpt:
LINK

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Not only is this nothing more than an editorial, but the information in the editorial is fallacious and has been debunked by studies. For example, evidence shows that children of gay couples are no more likely to have sexual identity issues than those of straight couples. Also, there is little evidence to show that children of gay parents are more stigmatized. The editorial is bunk.

mikhail said:

Dont get me wrong in principle im not against gay adoption i just wanna know what the evidence shows to the effects.

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Sure, evidence is an important part of this. No offense taken. I found my information. Back last February, I, in two posts, provided information on 12 studies, adding my own commentary for information. Since this in important information, and I am often asked to reproduce this, I will, here. I will reprint the posts, though I will edit them for content, as they began as a direct refutation of another poster's claims. All information provided is accurate and posted as it was, then; I will only be editing my commentary. I will post the links to the posts for credibility's sake.


Here are studies that show that there are few differences between children raised with single sex parents verses those raised with straight parents. Universally, studies show that not only do same-sex parents perform as well as straight parents (whose children would probably be biological), but do better at times. As far as children's emotional health goes, studies show that, on 4 important scales, there is little or no difference between children reared from single-sex families and those from straight parents (whose children would probably be biological). The 4 components examined were Gender Identity, Gender Role Behavior, Sexual Orientation, and Other Aspects of Personal Development, such as Social Relationships. One difference they did find was that children raised by single-sex parents tend to be more flexible and less closed-minded in their thinking. I guess, as the study I posted on another thread indicated, these non-rigid thinking children will, certainly, not turn out to be conservatives. :lol:

Now, there are so many studies on this that posting them all will take up too much bandwidth. I'll post a select few.

Studies:

Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351.

Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done.

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615 offspring from gay parents; 387 controls from straight parents. No differences in 7 types of functioning.

That's ONE.

Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press.

Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships. Most social adjustment problems occurred in both groups and were commonly related to family history of divorce. Results are supported by J. Schwartz's (unpublished manuscript) investigation of the above variables in adult-aged daughters in relation to mothers' sexual orientations, with a focus on role modeling theory.

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No difference between children raised by gay parents vs. straight parents on 3 scales. Only issue was society's issue with homosexuality; parenting was a non-issue.

That's TWO.

Kleber, D. J., Howell, R. J., & Tibbits-Kleber, A. L. (1986). The impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases: A review of the literature. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law, 14, 81-87.

Reviews the literature on the impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases. As a result of the relatively high rate of divorce in the United States and the increasing awareness that many parents (an estimated 1.5 million) are homosexual, the courts and divorce mediators have become actively involved in child custody placement decisions involving homosexual parents. While custody decisions have tended to reflect stereotyped beliefs or fears concerning the detrimental effects of homosexual parenting practices on child development, the research literature provides no evidence substantiating these fears. Several specific custody issues are discussed as well as social factors relevant to lesbian motherhood.

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Interesting study. No significant issues when homosexual parents obtain custody when a divorce occurs.

That's THREE.

Victor, S. B., & Fish, M. C. (1995). Lesbian mothers and their children: A review for school psychologists. School Psychology Review, 24, 456-479.

Reviews 56 studies (published from 1971 to 1994) on lesbian mothers and their children. Three main family patterns and some common misconceptions about these families are addressed. Research suggests there are no differences between children of lesbians and children of heterosexuals with regard to their emotional health, interpersonal relationships, sexual orientation, or gender development. Psychological adjustment and parenting skills were not significantly different for lesbian and heterosexual mothers. Implications for school psychology practice and training are discussed.

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No significant difference in important emotional health issues between children raised by lesbian parents vs. straight parents.

That's FOUR.

Bigner, J. J., & Jacobsen, R. B. (1989b). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. In F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the family (pp. 173-186). New York: Harrington Park Press.

Compared the responses of 33 homosexual (HMS) fathers with those of 33 heterosexual (HTS) fathers on the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. HMS subjects did not differ significantly from HTS subjects in their reported degree of involvement or in intimacy level with children. HMS subjects tended to be more strict and more responsive to children's needs and provided reasons for appropriate behavior to children more consistently than HTS subjects. Possible explanations for these similarities and differences in parenting styles are explored.

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Homosexual parenting vs. Heterosexual parenting is explored. No significant differences were found, though homosexual parents tended to be more strict, more responsive, and more consistent with their children.

That's FIVE.

Shall I go on? Sure, why not.

Continued...

Continued...

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & van den Boom, D. C. (2004). Experience of parenthood, couple relationship, social support, and child-rearing goals in planned lesbian mother families. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45, 755-764.

The phenomenon of planned lesbian families is relatively new. The overall aim of this research was to examine whether planned lesbian mother families differ from heterosexual families on factors that are assumed to influence the parent-child relationship, such as experience of parenthood, child-rearing goals, couple relationship, and social support. One hundred lesbian two-mother families were compared with 100 heterosexual families having naturally conceived children. A variety of measures were used to collect the data, including questionnaires and a diary of activities kept by the parents. Lesbian parents are no less competent or more burdened than heterosexual parents. Both lesbian and heterosexual parents consider it important to develop qualities of independence in their children. However, "conformity" as a childrearing goal is less important to lesbian mothers. Furthermore, lesbian social mothers feel more often than fathers in heterosexual families that they must justify the quality of their parenthood. There are few differences between lesbian couples and heterosexual couples, except that lesbian mothers appear less attuned to traditional child-rearing goals and lesbian social mothers appear more to defend their position as mother.

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Lesbian parents vs. Biological parents. Both are equally competent and unburdened. Styles may be different, but no other differences.

That's SIX (and a rather nice six, I might add).

Flaks, D., Ficher, I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 104-114.

Compared 15 lesbian couples and the 3- to 9-year-old children born to them through donor insemination with 15 matched, heterosexual-parent families. A variety of assessment measures were used to evaluate the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship quality and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children, who also compared favorably with the standardization samples for the instruments used. In addition, no significant differences were found between dyadic adjustment of lesbian and heterosexual couples. Only in the area of parenting did the two groups of couples differ: Lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did heterosexual couples. The implications of these findings are discussed.

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Lesbian parents vs. heterosexual parents. No differences except that the lesbian parents exhibited more parenting awareness.

That's SEVEN.

McPherson, D. (1993). Gay parenting couples: Parenting arrangements, arrangement satisfaction, and relationship satisfaction. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology.

Twenty-eight gay male parenting couples and 27 heterosexual parenting couples from across the United States participated in a study comparing gay parenting couples and heterosexual parenting couples. Gay parenting couples are already existing gay couples into which a child has been brought prior to the child's 9-month birthday and in which the child is presently being reared. Parents' division of labor and satisfaction with their division of labor was assessed using Cowan and Cowan's Who Does What? Relationship satisfaction was assessed using a single question on relationship satisfaction and Spanier's 32-item Dyadic Adjustment Scale (DAS). Results revealed gay parenting couples demonstrate significantly more equitable arrangements of parenting tasks and roles and significantly greater satisfaction with those arrangements than the heterosexual parenting couples. A single question on relationship satisfaction revealed no significant difference between groups in reported satisfaction, while the 32-item DAS revealed the gay parenting couples to be significantly more satisfied with their relationships than the heterosexual couples, especially in the area of dyadic cohesion and affective expression. Post-hoc testing revealed a gender difference: Women reported significantly greater dissatisfaction with parenting arrangements than their husbands or gay parents. Findings are explained in terms of three factors unique to the experience and social setting of gay parenting couples.

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Gay male couples vs. heterosexual couples. The gay couples were happier and more equitable in their parenting tasks. Other than that, no significant differences.

That's EIGHT.

Miller, B. (1979). Gay fathers and their children. Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

Presents data from a 3-year study on the quality and nature of the relationships of homosexual fathers with their children. In-depth interviews were conducted with a snowball sample of 40 gay fathers and 14 of their children. Uses a cross-national sample: Interviews were conducted in large and small cities in both Canada and the United States. Excluded from the study were men who no longer saw their children. Fathers were aged from 24 to 64, and the children who were interviewed ranged from 14 to 33 years of age. Addresses the nature of the father-child relationship and the children's adjustment to their father's homosexuality. Four issues frequently raised in custody cases are discussed: Do gay fathers have children to cover their homosexuality, do they molest their children, do their children turn out to be gay in disproportionate numbers, and does having a gay father expose a child to homophobic harassment. Concludes that concerns that gay fathers will have a negative impact on their children's development are unfounded.

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The impact on the children of gay fathers based on 4 concerns. No negative impact.

That's NINE.

Green, R., Mandel, J. B., Hotvedt, M. E., Gray, J., & Smith, L. (1986). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175-181.

Compared the sexual identity and social relationships of 30 daughters and 26 sons (aged 3-11 yrs.) of 50 homosexual mothers with 28 daughters and 20 sons of 40 heterosexual mothers. Mothers were currently unmarried White women aged 25-46 years. In addition to age and race, mothers were matched on length of separation from father; educational level and income; and number, age, and sex of children. Subjects were from rural and urban areas in 10 U.S. states and lived without adult males in the household for a minimum of 2 years. Data from children's tests on intelligence, core-morphologic sexual identity, gender-role preferences, family and peer group relationships, and adjustment to the single-parent family indicate that there were no significant differences between the two types of households for boys and few significant differences for girls. Data also reveal more similarities than differences in parenting experiences, marital history, and present living situations of the two groups of mothers. It is suggested that the mother's sexual orientation per se should not enter into considerations on parental fitness that are commonly asserted in child custody cases.

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Children's sexual identity when reared by lesbian mothers vs, heterosexual mothers was explored. No difference in boys; few in girls. Mostly, both groups were similar.

That's TEN.

Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.

Compared the psychosexual development, emotions, behavior, and relationships of 37 children (aged 5-17 yrs.) reared in 27 lesbian households with 38 children (aged 5-27 yrs.) reared in 27 heterosexual single-parent households. Systematic standardized interviews with the mothers and with the children, together with parent and teacher questionnaires, were used to make the psychosexual and psychiatric assessments. The two groups did not differ in terms of their gender identity, sex-role behavior, or sexual orientation. Also, they did not differ on most measures of emotions, behavior, and relationships, although there was some indication of more frequent psychiatric problems in the single-parent group. It is concluded that rearing in a lesbian household per se does not lead to atypical psychosexual development or constitute a psychiatric risk factor.

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Children in lesbian households vs. those in single-parent heterosexual households on sexual identity. No significant difference. In fact, no difference on any emotional/behavioral scale.

That's ELEVEN.

Had enough, yet? No? OK.

Kirkpatrick, M., Smith, C., & Roy, R. (1981). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparative survey. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51, 545-551.

Forty 5- to 12-year-olds, divided equally into groups according to their mothers' sexual choice and within group by sex, were assessed with a developmental history, WISC scores, the Holtzman Inkblot Technique, and the Human Figure Drawing test. Subjects' gender development was not identifiably different in the two groups. Prevalence of disturbance was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual choice.

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Children of lesbian mothers vs. heterosexual mothers in regards to developmental, intellectual, and emotional functioning. No significant difference.

That's TWELVE.

Links used:

Lesbian & Gay Parents
Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents
Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian & Gay Parents & Their Children
Empirical Studies Generally Related to the Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children

Links to original posts:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057543399-post326.html
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057543400-post327.html


Now, admittedly, I composed this post nearly a year ago. There may be more studies released since then. I suppose if need be, I could go look, but I believe both the studies I have posted and the links provide enough information to both support my position and give y'all information to read.

I do agree with Oftencold's observation on the first page, that this issue is all too often argued on the basis of either the supposed "rights" of the adoptive parents or on unfounded notions concerning the nature of homosexuality. There are more important issues at stake.

However, I think the evidence is fairly clear on this point: children raised by homosexuals in a stable, responsible, and loving home are no worse off than children raised in a similar environment by heterosexuals. Thus, I would argue, the most reasonable course of action is to allow homosexual couples to adopt children-- but only if they are legally married.

Unfortunately, our laws do not currently allow for this; this is a situation that needs to be rectified, to protect the children who are already being raised by homosexual couples.

Korimyr the Rat said:

I do agree with Oftencold's observation on the first page, that this issue is all too often argued on the basis of either the supposed "rights" of the adoptive parents or on unfounded notions concerning the nature of homosexuality. There are more important issues at stake.

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I don't think that's a bad basis for argument, though. Of course, the needs of the children should be paramount, but in a situation where kids have the opportunity to be adopted and raised by fit parents, the rights of the potential parents are very important, too. And the stumbling block, in Florida, is the couple can't adopt because they are gay. That is the issue.

rsixing said:

Sure would be interested in some date for the rate of homosexual couples staying together.

Edited to add this link I found.

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Your link is to a biased study. It compares homosexual relationships (where gays are not allowed to marry) to heterosexual relationships (where heterosexuals are allowed to marry). The comparison cannot account for the effect of the legal framework of marriage and the probably more profound effect of society's attitude toward homosexual relationships in general.

Dezaad said:

Your link is to a biased study. It compares homosexual relationships (where gays are not allowed to marry) to heterosexual relationships (where heterosexuals are allowed to marry). The comparison cannot account for the effect of the legal framework of marriage and the probably more profound effect of society's attitude toward homosexual relationships in general.

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Yeah, to be fair you'd have to compare the break-up rates of homosexual relationships to the break-up rates of serious heterosexual boyfriend-girlfriend relationships in which the participants aren't married.
I don't know that there have been any studies like that.

Dezaad said:

Your link is to a biased study. It compares homosexual relationships (where gays are not allowed to marry) to heterosexual relationships (where heterosexuals are allowed to marry). The comparison cannot account for the effect of the legal framework of marriage and the probably more profound effect of society's attitude toward homosexual relationships in general.

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I sought out the link when tryreading stated "most" marriages end in divorce. That is a patently false claim or at least not supported by given data.

So given tryreading's claim I thought it would be germaine to find out how many homosexuals stay together in what would be considered the closest comparative relationship to marriage now; ergo the link showing these relationships are far less 'solid' and lack the longeivity of current heterosexual marriages.

So yes your point is valid in that the study does not show 'homosexual marriage' and the 'legal framework' is lacking. But still, at least IMO, the study cannot be ignored in the larger view of things. IF homosexuals are ever able to marry will their marriages last or will these marriages also fall to the current level or lack any change with a legal framework given homosexual relationship breakups as noted or is it too big an if?

Additionally I don't know if there will be a societal shift in broader opinion IF homosexual marriages somehow are "legalized" since I still hold that religious belief will trump legislation always.

1069 said:

Yeah, to be fair you'd have to compare the break-up rates of homosexual relationships to the break-up rates of serious heterosexual boyfriend-girlfriend relationships in which the participants aren't married.
I don't know that there have been any studies like that.

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That or you have to find the closest comparison of the two.

Farcejj said:

Bigotry and prejudice projected by dwindling numbers.

"The arc of history is a long one, but it bends towards justice."

Martin Luther King Jr.

It's only a matter of time and equality will come. It will be as slow, if not slower, as the equality previous minorities of our country fought for.

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Could you explain to me how past racism and bigotry towards racial minorities is comparative to the societal rejection of sexual behavior?

rsixing said:

Could you explain to me how past racism and bigotry towards racial minorities is comparative to the societal rejection of sexual behavior?

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Because it's not about "sexual behavior" (if it was, they'd be outlawing "Girls Gone Wild"). :roll:
It's about sexual orientation, which is an inherent, inborn trait much like one's ethnicity.
it's about a segment of society being discriminated against and denied equal rights because of traits they were born with and can't help or change.
And in that way, it is exactly parallel to the civil rights movement.

1069 said:

Because it's not about "sexual behavior" (if it was, they'd be outlawing "Girls Gone Wild"). :roll:
It's about sexual orientation, which is an inherent, inborn trait much like one's ethnicity.
it's about a segment of society being discriminated against and denied equal rights because of traits they were born with and can't help or change.
And in that way, it is exactly parallel to the civil rights movement.

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Why am I wrong? Heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, it's all sexual behavior isn't it? When someone says I'm heterosexual then it's understood their behavior is directed at the opposite sex just as when someone says I'm homosexual their behavior is directed at the same sex. Or is it your position in this argument that if sexual behavior is used rather then sexual orientation the use would negate the foundation of your argument that sexuality is parallel to race.

rsixing said:

Why am I wrong? Heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, it's all sexual behavior isn't it?

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If that were true then there would be no such thing as a homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual virgins.

Do you support allowing two men who have a completely non-sexual romantic relationship to raise children then?

Unrein said:

If that were true then there would be no such thing as a homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual virgins.

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This sounds like the Clintonesque argument what really constitutes sex.

With all due respect I'm having a difficult time accepting your explanation because it does not negate the reality that sexual behavior is defined by who you have sex with just as sexual orientation is defined by who you have sex with.

Do you support allowing two men who have a completely non-sexual romantic relationship to raise children then?

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I don't have an issue with homosexuals, individuals or couples, raising children.

rsixing said:

This sounds like the Clintonesque argument what really constitutes sex.

With all due respect I'm having a difficult time accepting your explanation because it does not negate the reality that sexual behavior is defined by who you have sex with just as sexual orientation is defined by who you have sex with.

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Sure, sexual behavior is defined by who you have sex with but sexual orientation is who you are sexually attracted to. People, to my understanding, define their sexuality as who they are attracted to not who they have sex with. I mean, would you consider prison bitches homosexual necessarily?

Unrein said:

Sure, sexual behavior is defined by who you have sex with but sexual orientation is who you are sexually attracted to. People, to my understanding, define their sexuality as who they are attracted to not who they have sex with. I mean, would you consider prison bitches homosexual necessarily?

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Exactly. Is a lesbian who is raped by a man magically "bisexual"?
Is a lesbian virgin who is raped by a man then "straight"?

rsixing said:

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America the divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%. That hardly qualifies as 'most'. Others rate them lower, some higher.

Sure would be interested in some date for the rate of homosexual couples staying together.

Edited to add this link I found.

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You may be right on the divorce rate for first marriage not being 'most.' But projected rates have been as high as 50%, although that is probably high.

The numbers at the following site show somewhere near a 50% divorce rate state by state. Of course, the people getting divorced in a particular year are not the same ones who got married that year. And, even 50% is not most, so you win that argument. I would like to see total marriages and the divorce numbers from that data, but I can't find the information in that format right now.

Still, there is a high rate of divorce that kids of heterosexuals have to deal with.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_20.pdf

Unrein said:

Sure, sexual behavior is defined by who you have sex with but sexual orientation is who you are sexually attracted to. People, to my understanding, define their sexuality as who they are attracted to not who they have sex with. I mean, would you consider prison bitches homosexual necessarily?

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So back to what I struggle with. How is sexual orientation an equal parallel of race? An ethnicity is defined distinctly by physical make-up, a product of lineage and parents, and defined as such. Sexual orientation is defined by who you are sexually attracted to. How are those parallels?

rsixing said:

So back to what I struggle with. How is sexual orientation an equal parallel of race? An ethnicity is defined distinctly by physical make-up, a product of lineage and parents, and defined as such. Sexual orientation is defined by who you are sexually attracted to. How are those parallels?

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It's not orientation that is the issue it's gender.

Descriminating marriage for interracial couples is exactly like this. You cannot control your race nor can you control your gender. Saying homosexuals have an equal right to marry is like saying "black people have an equal right to marry the same race, just like white people have the same right to marry the same race, etc."

Seperate but equal is not equal.

Oftencold said:

If that is the sort of thing you wish to believe, then I leave it unto you.

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It's true. What would say to those single parent families, foster families, adoptive families, etc? They are not 'traditional' in your sense of the word - unless you are going to claim that as long as there's a mother and a father, it's all good?

Would you call these families 'non traditional'? How about abnormal? Unnatural? Most people would slap you if you stated that their family was not a 'traditional' one - because as I said, there are so many different families that there is no such thing as a 'traditional' family.